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Archive 2012 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or...
  
 
jzucker
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p.1 #1 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Please note, not interested in HSS, just interested in hypersync which is when the receiver triggers the transmitter slightly early, not to be confused with HSS which pulses the flash at low power in order to achieve higher sync speeds.

Also, willing to give up on remote power setting.

At any rate, my elinchrom/skyport will not sync faster than 1/125 and so for the first phase of my upgrade I want to replace the skyport with a PW or some other device that can achieve sync speeds of at least 1/320 if this is even possible on the 5D II.

My second phase of upgrade is to replace the elinchrom with einsteins so whatever remote system I choose needs to work with both systems.

Any advice would be appreciated. Please, no editorial comments on the merits of Buff vs Elinchrom.

Thanks in advance.



Oct 15, 2012 at 05:33 PM
BrianO
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p.1 #2 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Hypersync is LPA Design's proprietary sync re-timing system, and is available on the Flex TT5 and Mini TT1.

It will work, with appropriate connectors, on both Elinchroms and Einsteins (and other brands), so if and when you switch from one model of strobe to another it's just a matter of getting the right connector.

Hypersync works best when both a ControlTL transmitter and a ControlTL receiver are used, but you can get somewhat-better-than-sync-speed results with just a ControlTL tranmitter and a Plus-II or Multi-Max receiver.

The following links may help you in sorting out what gear you'll need:

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/hypersync_fpsync/

http://www.pocketwizard.com/products/transmitter_receiver/powerst4/

http://www.pocketwizard.com/products/transmitter_receiver/powermc2/

Good luck; it can be a bit confusing getting through the maze, but it can also be fun and rewarding.

Edited on Oct 16, 2012 at 06:09 AM · View previous versions



Oct 15, 2012 at 07:48 PM
jzucker
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p.1 #3 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Thanks Brian. One thing I've read is that because of the Einstein's fast flash duration that hypersync only works at full (or close to full) power because that is when the flash tail trails off the slowest. Some folks have had better luck using the alienbee or whitelightning flashes with hypersync for that reason.

I realize that HS is a proprietary trade name but other manufacturers such as Phottix have their own version though in the case of Phottix Odin, I was never able to get hypersync to work with my flash units.

I'd like to find someone that has gotten it to work with the 5d II and either Elinchrom or Einsten before I jump in and spend $650+ on the PW system. Seems that the 5D II is notorious for slow shutter lag and in several tests I've seen, folks are getting a max of 1/250 before the black bar on the 5d. Even that would be an improvement for me though because with the elinchrom skyport I can't sync faster than 1/125

My phottix Strato II was slightly better - being able to sync at 1/200 but was good for only about 100 exposures with a fresh set of recharged batteries. After that, I started getting the black bar and had to drop down to 1/160.



Oct 15, 2012 at 08:05 PM
BrianO
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p.1 #4 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


jzucker wrote:
Thanks Brian. One thing I've read is that because of the Einstein's fast flash duration that hypersync only works at full (or close to full) power because that is when the flash tail trails off


Yes, the Einstein uses an IGBT (similar to a thyristor) to cut off the flash for lower exposures, so it has a very steep downward "cliff" at the end.

jzucker wrote:
...I'd like to find someone that has gotten it to work with the 5d II and either Elinchrom or Einsten before I jump in and spend $650+ on the PW system.


That's a wise decision. I haven't tried it, because I only rarely have access to a 5D Mark II, but here's one tester's experience:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9884-9903-9907

He was able to get a clean frame at 1/250 using HyperSync, something none of his other triggers would do. I think with the latest firmware (the new Automation feature) you may be able to do even better. (He wasn't using an Elinchrom or an Einsten, though.)

Good luck.



Oct 16, 2012 at 02:49 AM
Sheldon N
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p.1 #5 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Elinchrom lights have their fastest duration at full power.

Trying to do this type of hypersync is generally a fools errand. It doesn't get you additional ability to kill ambient light (if you can even get it working), once you cross beyond the sync speed your strobe power and ambient light essentially track each other linearly as you increase shutter speed. It's also going to be unpredictable and you couldn't use a meter properly... basically you need to chimp to see if you like the results and if you adjust flash power you need to hope that it doesn't change flash duration to the point where it messes up the shot.

The only reason to even bother with this is if you need to mix ambient light and strobes and you need to freeze action from the ambient light... ie. outdoor daylight sports with strobe where the strobe and ambient mix on the moving subject (generally backlit with strobe doesn't have problems).

If you just want shallow depth of field, use an ND filter. If you want more power to kill ambient, turn up your strobe and stop down.... or buy a Ranger.

Edit: If you're looking to just get a little extra out of your 5D II, and not cross over into crazy high shutter speeds (1/1000+) then using a PW MiniTT1 will get you about 1/2 to 2/3 stop faster sync speed if you get the timing right. You can even piggy back a Skyport on top of the MiniTT1 and use the timing on the MiniTT1 to tweak it. It will probably get you closer to 1/200 or maybe 1/250 with a hint of banding. I don't think 1/320 or higher is going to work well... (see rant above).



Oct 16, 2012 at 04:24 PM
jzucker
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p.1 #6 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Thanks Sheldon. I'm basically looking to get faster shutter speeds to minimize movement with outdoor action/dance photography. In the studio the flash duration will solve the problem at normal sync speeds.

Tech support at pocketwizard is advising me to use white lightning or alien bees due to the ability to use lower power levels. however, they're recommending a TT1 on the camera and a TT5 *and* AC9 on the flash. They said without the AC9 I'd have to reconfigure the port after every flash. Seems like a pretty expensive solution.



Oct 16, 2012 at 05:07 PM
BrianO
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p.1 #7 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


jzucker wrote:
Tech support at pocketwizard is advising me to use white lightning or alien bees due to the ability to use lower power levels. however, they're recommending a TT1 on the camera and a TT5 *and* AC9 on the flash. They said without the AC9 I'd have to reconfigure the port after every flash. Seems like a pretty expensive solution.


That's one nice thing about the Elinchrom RX / Pocket Wizard combination: the PowerST4 Receiver just plugs into the strobe and you're all set. No dangling cords, no extra pieces needed for full functionality, etc.



Oct 16, 2012 at 06:34 PM
BrianO
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p.1 #8 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


I just thought of something you might want to try as an experiment:

If you put a Speedlite on the camera and set it for High Speed Sync, the flash pulses start just before the shutter opens (unlike normal flash that trips just after the first curtain falls or -- for rear-curtain sync -- just before the second curtain falls).

If you were to aim the Speedlite at a strobe, the initial pulse of the Speedlite might trigger the strobe's built-in optical trigger enough in advance to catch the tail-off slope in a manner similar to HyperSync.

If it doesn't work, you won't have spent any money (assuming you have a Speedlite), and if it does work...you won't have spent any money.



Oct 16, 2012 at 06:39 PM
jzucker
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p.1 #9 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Thanks for both suggestions Brian. I wonder if the RX will work at lower power settings too?


Oct 16, 2012 at 06:46 PM
jzucker
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p.1 #10 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


just for fun, I retested speed vs standard mode. In speed mode, I'm not seeing the black band at the bottom of the frame like I do in standard mode but I'm getting some slight, dark vignetting in the corners which may be acceptable for certain applications. I may try a TT1 with the skyport on top as sheldon suggests. to see if I can get up to 250 or 320


Oct 16, 2012 at 10:51 PM
 

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BrianO
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p.1 #11 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


jzucker wrote:
...I'm getting some slight, dark vignetting in the corners...


All four corners, or just the bottom two?



Oct 17, 2012 at 04:29 AM
jzucker
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p.1 #12 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


need to re-test on a tripod before stating definitively.


Oct 17, 2012 at 10:49 AM
jzucker
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p.1 #13 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


I re-read Rob Galbraith's article and it looks like in his test he's getting pretty clean images at 1/250 with the miniTT1 and potentially acceptable black bar at 1/320 but I'm not sure what the falloff characteristics and power settings are on the flash units he's using.

If I stick with elinchrom, it'd probably be worth it to investigate a 300 S or 600 S since I assume the lower power settings would work better with hypersync.



Oct 17, 2012 at 01:37 PM
jzucker
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p.1 #14 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


This guy is using hypersync at extreme speeds (1/2500 & 1/3200) and proves that it's *NOT* a fool's errand.

http://tombolphoto.com/blog/elinchrom-quadra-high-speed-sync-at-12500/



Oct 18, 2012 at 01:39 PM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #15 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Tom Bol uses Nikon and not a 5DII. A lot of your answer lies there.

Also, all samples I've seen with either the Quadra or Ranger illustrate a significant drop in output from what is attainable at full power, often the power is 'turned down' when used beyond x-sync.. probably because 'turned up' it doesn't work because of the short flash duration. (See Sheldon N's comment above: 'Elinchrom lights have their fastest duration at full power....' ). Obviously, turning them down is beneficial for extending your shutter speed, but not beneficial for your output requirements.

Short flash durations should be beneficial for 'Peak' Hypersync and getting you beyond x-sync with an increase in flash to ambient ratio.. When a Speedlight can do this, then a strobe like the Ranger or Quadra should be able to this too. Are there any samples of this around? No.

I've asked umpteen times for any comparisons using a Quadra and any beyond x-sync shutter speeds but nobody wants to show. There are plenty of these strobes around but it seems that full disclosure must be detrimental for some reason? It sure would deter the speculative purchaser if performance in this area was important.




Oct 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM
jzucker
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p.1 #16 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


I should also mention that I have a 7d as well as the 5d and I'm perfectly willing to use the 7d in situations where hypersync might work to my advantage.

I also had a conversation with tech support at pocketwizard who indicated I should have good luck with my BXRI 500 and hypersync.

The one caveat he mentioned was that if I try to stack the skyport on top of a TT1 that there might be a certain degree of latency that would negate the hypersync offset. Might be worth buying a TT1 with amazon's 45 degree return policy and give it a go...



Oct 19, 2012 at 01:08 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #17 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Any latency would be timed out if in fact it will work, since both the TT1 and skyport should be programmed together manually - and then for each of your cameras. This does leave out of the equation any flash side timing optimisation which PW were introducing - as flash side skyports couldn't use this.

People trying this piggyback method have resorted back to just basic triggers.. but you'll only know if you try it.

The lack of comparative evidence regarding Elinchrom is disappointing.



Oct 19, 2012 at 07:33 AM
jzucker
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p.1 #18 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


ukphotographer wrote:
Any latency would be timed out if in fact it will work, since both the TT1 and skyport should be programmed together manually - and then for each of your cameras. This does leave out of the equation any flash side timing optimisation which PW were introducing - as flash side skyports couldn't use this.

People trying this piggyback method have resorted back to just basic triggers.. but you'll only know if you try it.

The lack of comparative evidence regarding Elinchrom is disappointing.


I think the tech's point was that the latency of the skyport trigger/send and then the receive on the skyport flash may be great enough to negate the early trigger programming of the TT1

I think i'm going to buy it and give it a try though. Amazon's 45 day return policy is good for this sort of thing.



Oct 19, 2012 at 10:50 AM
Tom Robinson
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p.1 #19 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


jzuker, I have tested the TT5's with the Einstiens and MC2's on the 5DC and 40D. The 1.6 crop factor camera has no problem with hypersync up to 1/400th but the FF sensor was only good to 1/250th before showing signs of the shutter. These were done inside without ambient. Still not good enough for the wide-open apetures I was seeking to use outside. I have come to think the ND solution is the most reliable consistant and cheapest way to go. FWIW


Oct 19, 2012 at 02:48 PM
jzucker
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p.1 #20 · Options for Hypersync with canon 5D II & Elinchrom or Einstein


Thanks Tom. How does the autofocus perform on the 5D II and something like the 24-105 F4L with a 3x ND filter?

Wide apertures is not the only use hypersync of course. The other use would be freezing action. I'm wondering if anyone has done any comparative analysis of freezing action based hypersync vs standard sync. It seems like in order to get hypersync to work, you have to slow the flash duration down which is working against you. So if you can get up to 1/500th of a second that's cool but now the flash duration slows down in order to allow it to be visible during that 1/500 window, how much do you really gain vs 1/200 or 1/250 and an extremely short flash duration?



Oct 19, 2012 at 02:54 PM
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