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Archive 2012 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)
  
 
Edgars Kalnins
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p.67 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


carstenw wrote:
I recall hearing before what you stated in this post. One comment, on one part of this:

If this is really the case, then I would call that acting in bad faith on Sony's part. If they have the design and construction under their own control, then the only reason they could possibly have for making the G lenses better is because they choose to do so, not because of any short-coming on Zeiss' behalf. In other words, Sony wants the G lenses to be better than their pseudo-Zeiss lenses.

(I leave unmentioned the assumption that Zeiss' criteria do not prevent making
...Show more
I remember reading that Zeiss lenses in Nokia are in fact better than their 35mm counterparts. Of course they are miniature and achieving the same quality in 35mm is a different feat. Mobile technologies, as we know, are leading the progress today.



Oct 22, 2012 at 08:25 PM
Uncle Mike
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p.67 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


alundeb wrote:
So they are Sony lenses "approved by Zeiss". Interesting and somewhat shocking info.


There are a lot of smart engineers in Japan. To think that only German engineers can design high-quality optics is stupid. Sony is just paying Zeiss for their brand name and nothing else. Not shocking, but just the way that a lot of brand names work; they are just names for sale to the highest bidder.



Oct 22, 2012 at 08:50 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.67 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


All I wanna know is if I can take gud pichures with dis lenz.


Oct 22, 2012 at 09:18 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.67 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


ken.vs.ryu wrote:
relevant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLj0IZFLKvg&feature=youtu.be


Yes.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Oct 22, 2012 at 09:21 PM
rattymouse
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p.67 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Uncle Mike wrote:
There are a lot of smart engineers in Japan. To think that only German engineers can design high-quality optics is stupid. Sony is just paying Zeiss for their brand name and nothing else. Not shocking, but just the way that a lot of brand names work; they are just names for sale to the highest bidder.


How do you KNOW this to be true?



Oct 22, 2012 at 10:45 PM
Kibsgaard
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p.67 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


alundeb wrote:
Relax, I am only making suggestions, not telling you. You seem to read everything literally, have no slack for interpretations, and don't help us understand your point.


Yes, I try to have respect for what you actually write - studies in communication shows that if you do not do so with regard to the written communication, so you end up in endless interpretations.

Quite in contrast to the personal communication.

My point is still, that the price is too high - in Europe, and I think it will go down in short time, while the price in USA is more right, but for the time being there is a very high difference in the price USA vs. Europe, much higher than we are used to see.





Oct 23, 2012 at 05:26 AM
alundeb
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p.67 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


alundeb wrote:
So they are Sony lenses "approved by Zeiss". Interesting and somewhat shocking info.

Uncle Mike wrote:
There are a lot of smart engineers in Japan. To think that only German engineers can design high-quality optics is stupid. Sony is just paying Zeiss for their brand name and nothing else. Not shocking, but just the way that a lot of brand names work; they are just names for sale to the highest bidder.


Exactly.



Oct 23, 2012 at 06:17 AM
Bijltje
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p.67 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Uncle Mike wrote:
There are a lot of smart engineers in Japan. To think that only German engineers can design high-quality optics is stupid. Sony is just paying Zeiss for their brand name and nothing else. Not shocking, but just the way that a lot of brand names work; they are just names for sale to the highest bidder.



Of course they can. Just look at sigma/ canon/ nikon. I just bought a cheap sigma 30mm 2.8 lens and I can't imagine a German company giving simular quality for that price.

But the thing normally with there re branded lenses is U know they are. See the 550 euro panasonic summilux, or the zeiss lens attached to a 200 euro sony camcorder.

With this camera, and its price, they sure give the impression its a real zeiss lens this time.



Oct 23, 2012 at 09:50 AM
philip_pj
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p.67 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


I don't like how both Sony try to make out the ZA range are somehow as Zeiss as ZE/F, and I dont like the blurring of desirable separation in responsibilities between them in the development of the ZAs and of this one.

Having said so, I doubt Sony has the design expertise to develop this lens on the RX1, though perhaps they received enough input from CZ to get it right. Zeiss are at the top of many optical fields. And close collaboration would benefit overall IQ due to shared knowledge of sensor design/tuning and lens design/devt - the process of making them work together harmoniously and effectively.



Oct 23, 2012 at 10:13 AM
alwang
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p.67 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


philip_pj wrote:
I don't like how both Sony try to make out the ZA range are somehow as Zeiss as ZE/F, and I dont like the blurring of desirable separation in responsibilities between them in the development of the ZAs and of this one.

Having said so, I doubt Sony has the design expertise to develop this lens on the RX1, though perhaps they received enough input from CZ to get it right. Zeiss are at the top of many optical fields. And close collaboration would benefit overall IQ due to shared knowledge of sensor design/tuning and lens design/devt - the process
...Show more

To me, the practical reality is the ZA lenses are very, very good, and any difference between ZA and ZE/F (both build materials and optical design) is more likely due to the accomodation of AF rather than who-did-what.



Oct 23, 2012 at 12:49 PM
 

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FlyPenFly
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p.67 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Since Zeiss themselves have stated officially in their blog the nature of their relationship with Sony I don't get why people are making assumptions.


Oct 23, 2012 at 01:38 PM
Phillip Reeve
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p.67 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


FlyPenFly wrote:
Since Zeiss themselves have stated officially in their blog the nature of their relationship with Sony I don't get why people are making assumptions.

can you provide us with a link? thanks!



Oct 23, 2012 at 01:40 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.67 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Busy day for me but I'm sure someone can google it.


Oct 23, 2012 at 02:14 PM
Kibsgaard
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p.67 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Phillip Reeve:Not sure if this is right, but just googled and got this (scroll down) ?? - just a try:




http://www.sony-mea.com/microsite/dslr/09/carlZeissLens/index.html?HPID=carlZeissLensMicrositeSLR:Thumbnails



Oct 23, 2012 at 02:26 PM
carstenw
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p.67 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Uncle Mike wrote:
There are a lot of smart engineers in Japan. To think that only German engineers can design high-quality optics is stupid. Sony is just paying Zeiss for their brand name and nothing else. Not shocking, but just the way that a lot of brand names work; they are just names for sale to the highest bidder.


First of all, just to make things clear, only you have written anything resembling "only German engineers can design high-quality optics".

Furthermore, I think you are undervaluing the Zeiss brand here. There is a huge amount of interest in Leica and Zeiss in the world. What other brands could support their own mega-threads here in the alt forum? If whatever Zeiss does with their brand really did not lead to great lenses, no one would respect them after a while. If Sony licenses the Zeiss brand, then that is a tacit admission that they believe that this will make the lenses more attractive to buyers, i.e. Sony things that people believe that Zeiss/German lenses are better than Japanese Sony lenses. If Sony then chooses to make their G lenses better than their "Zeiss" lenses, that is their own brand rank manipulation, which I happen to find distasteful, and which would tend to undermine Sony's integration, and thus indirectly, the consumer's trust in Japanese optics manufacturers...

Of course there are other good and great brands in the world, not just the German brands. But the Germans have been doing it for a very long time, and have built up their brand recognition with consistently high quality through time.

Name me one other optical company in the world with that level of dedication? Canon and Nikon continually send out mixed messages with crappy low-end lenses, mixed medium-range lenses and great high-end lenses. Especially Canon with the red ring L lens branding, some of which are great, many of which are mediocre or worse. Sony largely bought their lenses from Minolta, and has shown no coherent strategy for further developing their lineup or filling the holes, appearing more interested in pumping out bodies. Panasonic gets design assistance from Leica, but shows at least a more balanced approach to lens and body development than Sony.

Only Olympus really comes to my mind as a company which consistently puts out lenses which are at the very least good (from kit lenses and up), and often great or excellent. IIRC, Leica has mentioned Olympus as the only Japanese manufacturer they worry about.

And after the Germans and the Japanese, what is left in the consumer space? A few oddball lenses here and there, like the Coastal Optics lenses (hardly consumer).



Oct 23, 2012 at 02:30 PM
thrice
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p.67 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Carsten, other than 28/2.8 (discontinued and due for a refresh) T/S and a couple of super-tele's (200/2.8 & 400/2.8) What is missing from the A mount rainge?

E-mount is younger than 4/3 and has 11 Sony lenses, 6 third party and 2 more upcoming 'Zeiss' lenses.



Oct 23, 2012 at 02:37 PM
carstenw
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p.67 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


FlyPenFly wrote:
Busy day for me but I'm sure someone can google it.


Hmm, I searched around a bit with various combinations of Sony and Zeiss, but found nothing relevant. Perhaps you could dig out a link sometime when you are less busy?



Oct 23, 2012 at 02:40 PM
carstenw
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p.67 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


thrice wrote:
Carsten, other than 28/2.8 (discontinued and due for a refresh) T/S and a couple of super-tele's (200/2.8 & 400/2.8) What is missing from the A mount rainge?

E-mount is younger than 4/3 and has 11 Sony lenses, 6 third party and 2 more upcoming 'Zeiss' lenses.


It depends which site you look at. I just looked around on both the UK and US sites, and for teles longer than the 135 ZA, I see only 70-200, 70-300, 70-400, and 500/4. Where did the others go? Are they discontinued?

There are also some high-end fast primes missing in the range from 24-50 or so, as well as high-quality wide primes. Generally, there is something at every focal length, more or less, but no range in the offerings, just one lens here, one there. It feels very empty.

Anyway, my statement was more aimed at the fact that Sony has released an amazing number of bodies in the last few years, but few lenses. There appears to be no efforts underway to offer a larger range of high-end lenses, NEX or DSLR, no effort to overhaul mediocre performers, such as Nikon and especially Canon are currently doing, no effort to support specialist purposes, like tilt-shift lenses, and so on. Sony in general just appears to be doing the bare minimum in the lens offerings.

As a contrast, look at Olympus or Panasonic in the mirrorless space. Lots of zooms, lots of great primes, and lots of new releases all the time, or look at the amazingly complete offerings of Canon and Nikon in the DSLR arena. Sony doesn't appear to be trying to pull even here. At all. Neat cameras, but I would never buy one until I was more sure of their lens lineup.



Oct 23, 2012 at 02:45 PM
mortyb
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p.67 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


I think too many become way too obsessed about the need/wish to have the absolute bestest. Sometimes a very good lens is more than good enough. At least this goes for me. If you're not able to make fab shots with the Sony system, then it doesn't matter what system you use. Except for special needs. Nothing wrong in discussing or wishing, but sometimes it goes way to out there IMO. If only this, if only that. IMO. What's wrong with the Sony 35/1.4? How may times to you really need 24/1.4 to make THE shot? The Sony 50/1.4 is IMO really, really good. It renders Leica-ish. You have ZA 16-35 and ZA 24-70. Both excellent. ZA 85 and ZA 135 are excellent. Sony 70-200 is apparently really good. Unless you are a wildlife/sports shooter, or need TS lenses, what is really missing? I could go on. My point is - there's nothing lacking in the Sony system in order to make fab shots except for some special needs. IMO.

Of course, this is a specialized forum. But I've really come to realize content is king, and to me it's so much more important getting the shot than it being technically perfect with the most überawesome lens or system. When kayaking, I bring my Nex 5n + 16/2.8 with Sony wide angle converter. The shots are great, A3 prints look fab. To me, that's more than good enough. I brought my D700 + ZF21 one time. Pointless, I didn't get any more or better keepers.

Use what works for you. Content is king. IMO.

Edited on Oct 23, 2012 at 03:30 PM · View previous versions



Oct 23, 2012 at 03:21 PM
thrice
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p.67 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


carstenw wrote:
It depends which site you look at. I just looked around on both the UK and US sites, and for teles longer than the 135 ZA, I see only 70-200, 70-300, 70-400, and 500/4. Where did the others go? Are they discontinued?

300/2.8 G just got a refresh to version II which should be arriving soon.
like I said, no 200 or 400 primes at the moment.

carstenw wrote:
There are also some high-end fast primes missing in the range from 24-50 or so, as well as high-quality wide primes. Generally, there is something at every focal length, more or less, but no range in the offerings, just one lens here, one there. It feels very empty.

Wait... ZA24/2 is there and very good, ZA55/1.4 has been announced due for release next year. 35/1.4 needs a refresh I agree...

carstenw wrote:
Anyway, my statement was more aimed at the fact that Sony has released an amazing number of bodies in the last few years, but few lenses. There appears to be no efforts underway to offer a larger range of high-end lenses, NEX or DSLR, no effort to overhaul mediocre performers, such as Nikon and especially Canon are currently doing, no effort to support specialist purposes, like tilt-shift lenses, and so on. Sony in general just appears to be doing the bare minimum in the lens offerings.

I have spoken to some key people and cannot comment on unannounced lenses, but suffice to say a lot will be announced next year.
They ARE making efforts to release new lenses, three new E mount lenses just got announced and will be available in the next 2 months.
As for mediocre performers, which lenses are you referring to? The 28/2.8 was discontinued recently which should tell you something. The 300/2.8 was an old Minolta design which is getting refreshed. I imagine the 35/1.4 is next on the block.

carstenw wrote:
As a contrast, look at Olympus or Panasonic in the mirrorless space. Lots of zooms, lots of great primes, and lots of new releases all the time, or look at the amazingly complete offerings of Canon and Nikon in the DSLR arena. Sony doesn't appear to be trying to pull even here. At all. Neat cameras, but I would never buy one until I was more sure of their lens lineup.

I enjoy comments like this so I can do things like this:
Panasonic Lumix G 7-14mm f/4
Sony 10-18/4

Samyang 7.5mm f/3.5 Fisheye
Lumix G 8mm f/3.5 fisheye
Sony Fisheye Adapter OR Samyang 8/3.5 although that's a little big

Olympus 9-18mm f/4-5.6
Sony 10-18/4

Panasonic Lumix G 12-35mm f/2.8 Power O.I.S.
Sony 16-50 f/3.5-5.6 Power Zoom OSS although slower but much cheaper

Olympus 12mm f/2
Sony 16/2.8 although not as good optically but much cheaper
Zeiss 12/2.8 a bit wider on APS-C than the Oly

Olympus M.Zuiko ED 12-50mm f3.5-6.3 EZ

Panasonic Lumix G 12.5mm f/12 3D lens

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm f/2.5 Pancake lens

Olympus 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6
Sony 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 OSS

Panasonic Lumix G X PZ 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 Power O.I.S.
Sony 16-50 f/3.5-5.6 Power Zoom OSS

Panasonic Lumix G 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 Mega O.I.S.
Sony 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 OSS

Panasonic Lumix G 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 Mega O.I.S.
Sony 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 OSS

Panasonic Lumix G HD 14-140mm f/4-5.8 Mega O.I.S.
Sony 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 OSS
Sony 18-200 f/3.5-6.3LE OSS

Olympus 14-150mm f/4-5.6
Sony 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 OSS
Sony 18-200 f/3.5-6.3LE OSS

Olympus 17mm f/2.8
Zeiss 24/1.8

Olympus 17mm f/1.8
Zeiss 24/1.8

Sigma 19mm f/2.8
Zeiss 24/1.8
Sigma 19mm f/2.8

Panasonic Lumix G 20mm f/1.7
Zeiss 24/1.8 Albeit not a pancake!

Panasonic Leica DG 25mm f/1.4
Sony 35/1.8 OSS
Zeiss 32/1.8

Sigma 30mm f/2.8
Sony 35/1.8 OSS
Zeiss 32/1.8

Lumix G X 35-100mm f/2.8 Power O.I.S.

Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm f/4.0-5.6
Sony 55-210 f/4.5-6.3 OSS

Olympus 45mm f/1.8
Sony 50/1.8 OSS not quite as long I admit.

Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm f/2.8 1:1 Macro Mega O.I.S.
Sony 30/3.5 Macro OSS not in the same league optically.
Zeiss 50/2.8 Macro

Panasonic Lumix G 45-150mm f/4-5.6 Mega O.I.S.
Sony 55-210 f/4.5-6.3 OSS

Panasonic Lumix G X PZ 45-175mm f/4-5.6 Power O.I.S.
Sony 55-210 f/4.5-6.3 OSS

Panasonic Lumix G 45-200mm f/4-5.6 Mega O.I.S.

Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm f/2.8 1:1 macro
Zeiss 50/2.8 Macro

Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm f/1.8

Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 75-300mm f/4.8-6.7

Panasonic Lumix G 100-300mm f/4-5.6 Mega O.I.S.

So as far as I see it, they just need a super-tele zoom, a fast long tele, a longer macro (EDIT: Added the Zeiss 50/2.8 recently announced) and a moderate speed pancake wide to match 4/3. Or am I missing something?
Wins and losses on both camps with regard to optical comparisons. The new 35/1.8 and 10-18/4 are fantastic though.
With regard to the CaNikon comment, well, Sony have only been making DSLR's and lenses since 2006...


Edited on Oct 24, 2012 at 12:19 AM · View previous versions



Oct 23, 2012 at 03:22 PM
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