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Dennis M 1064 Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #1 · Model/Prop release Apps. I'm heading out to Montana and Wyoming next week. Upon my return, I will be shooting an event at a friends 'pick your own' orchard, where there will be live music and festivities. My arrangement with him (verbal) is I get images for my portfolio for professional usage, and he gets images for his Website and advertising. So, I know, get a release. Is there an app for iPhone that actually works, and does a good job of covering the bases? I may decide that I would like to photograph some working cowboys on a (private) ranch and need model releases, and then have something for the Orchard owner so that he feels covered, and I feel covered and have use of the images. Anyone have an app they recommend? I looked at the ASMP app, put then the reviews say there are bugs that make it not function correctly. I didn't see any dates on the reviews, so they could be yesterday, or a year ago. Also, since I am on the subject, and historically have not photographed people, actually failing a class in college because of it (it is a mental thing), how do you professional photographers go about dealing with the issue of a release with strangers? "Hey, can I take your picture? Here sign this release so I can use it however I want." Yeah, that doesn't seem like a good approach. Effectively, that is what you are doing though, no? So, how do you approach that, and have both parties not feel that. .angst? (For lack of a better word). I have always wanted to photograph people, but for me, it is like asking that great girl out for the first date. I suck at that too. Doesn't mean I don't really want the date, but would rather hit my thumb with a hammer than have to ask. To put that in perspective, I would rather give up a hard earned 3.9 average, than seek models for a portrait/fashion/glamour class. So, aside from recommending a shrink, maybe you can share some experience. This probably should be two posts. We'll see. Sep 07, 2012 at 02:18 PM

billkoe Offline • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #2 · Model/Prop release Apps. I like the ASMP app. I have yet to find bugs in it but I've only used it for a few weeks. On point two... I can't change your personality... but remember that some releases have been challenged legally if there was no exchange of something of value for signing a release. This could be your hook... "I'd be happy to send you some (lo-res) selects if you sign my release. See, it says right here that I'm required to give you 4 images at 400x600 pixels for this release to be valid." Sep 07, 2012 at 02:55 PM

Dennis M 1064 Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #3 · Model/Prop release Apps. Yup, you are right on the personality thing. Kind of embarrassing actually. When I was an EMT in Los Angeles, we were contracted with LA County 911. I never thought twice about involving myself personally and directly with a stranger who is likely having the worst day of their life, or their last, and believe me, it can get quite personal! But to ask a stranger if I can take their photo. .not so easy. Especially when I am then going to ask them to sign a release! Like the tribesman who thought if you take their photograph, you will take their spirit. It really is personal. You really are taking something from somebody. My personality makes that too personal. But, T-bone a Cadillac with your Ninja, and fracture your pelvis and femur, and I have no issues with cutting your clothes off. How messed up is that!?! Thanks for the hook Bill (not. . . hookbil. . .never mind). So, that doesn't sound that difficult. Hmmmm, now where the heck is that damn hammer. . . . Sep 07, 2012 at 03:15 PM

RustyBug Offline • • • • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #4 · Model/Prop release Apps. Dennis ... I feel your pain @ asking. Having suffered through similar times ... I'll take a stab with .02 I think it comes down to when you are in the EMT role ... you feel like you are doing something FOR THEM. When you are in the photographer role, you feel like you are doing something FOR YOU ... and assume that there isn't any reason for them to go along with it because you assume they won't see anything in it FOR THEM. For some people, they will only go along with it if they can see something in it FOR THEM. But there are still others, who (like you as an EMT) will do it without great concern to "what's in it for them" ... willing to do it "FOR YOU". It's that feeling that you believe that you are "putting them out" that restricts you from asking. When I was a recruiter (long ago) it was very difficult for me to ask, until I came to realize that I had something of value to offer them, that UNTIL I ASKED I wouldn't know what valuation they perceived. Sure, it often times required some additional explanation to get them to understand what / why @ an issue. But, I think the point here is that you are trying to carry the onus of their perception in your assumptions that they "won't want to" ... whereas when performing EMT duties, it is pretty clear that they "would want" you to. It is the uncertainty that is debilitating for some. You simply need to practice getting rejected enough, in such a way that you come to realize, it isn't the end of the world or uber critical if someone says "no". It isn't even the end of the story on the "first no". Handling rejection ... and objection handling (two very different things) are learned skills. As an EMT ... you experienced very little objection or rejection ... easy to proceed. Objection (which precedes) and rejection aren't something to be "avoided" ... but rather understood. If you'll ask yourself (in advance) what a person's objections might be (i.e. fear of being plastered all over the internet), then you can prepare yourself to answer that (maybe in your release). You can even ask the person directly what objections they might have if when they first say "no" ... and then alleviating their concerns accordingly. You won't win them all over ... but I'd suggest studying / practicing the art of "objection handling" ... and then preparing accordingly. It's a learned thing ... but smart enough for a 3.9 GPA ... smart enough to learn "objection handling". Also ... to help with YOUR mindset, and help convey that to others ... I'll remind myself that I'm "on assignment" whether that be as assigned by myself or working for someone else. As in the case of being "on assignment" for the orchard. It can help transform it from the "for you" to "for others" mentality that is probably conditioned a bit from your EMT experience and training. HTH ... GL Edited on Sep 07, 2012 at 08:40 PM · View previous versions Sep 07, 2012 at 05:05 PM

BenV Online • • • • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #5 · Model/Prop release Apps. Dennis M 1064 wrote: Yup, you are right on the personality thing. Kind of embarrassing actually. When I was an EMT in Los Angeles, we were contracted with LA County 911. I never thought twice about involving myself personally and directly with a stranger who is likely having the worst day of their life, or their last, and believe me, it can get quite personal! But to ask a stranger if I can take their photo. .not so easy. Especially when I am then going to ask them to sign a release! Like the tribesman who thought if you take their photograph, you will take their spirit. It really is personal. You really are taking something from somebody. My personality makes that too personal. But, T-bone a Cadillac with your Ninja, and fracture your pelvis and femur, and I have no issues with cutting your clothes off. How messed up is that!?! Thanks for the hook Bill (not. . . hookbil. . .never mind). So, that doesn't sound that difficult. Hmmmm, now where the heck is that damn hammer. . . . I personally disagree, as long as you are friendly and approachable, most people won't have a problem. You're not taking anything from anyone. Its simply a photo. Which if you live in a major city, you are constantly being recorded and photographed. Just stick with being friendly and saying something along the lines of "I'm the hired photographer, would you mind signing this". When they know your a 'professional' they are less hesitant to turn you down vs. joe schmoe who wants to be a creeper and get pictures of people. Sep 07, 2012 at 05:07 PM

Brit-007 Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #6 · Model/Prop release Apps. There is an app called Photographers Contract Maker that might suite you. Sep 07, 2012 at 07:10 PM

Dennis M 1064 Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #7 · Model/Prop release Apps. Thanks Rusty, I'll keep referring back to that, and try to keep it in mind. The "I'm on assignment" part I think will be a good way of keeping the mindset. I did download the ASMP App. I was able to put my personal info in, and it seems to be keeping it. There was a complaint about that, but that bug seems to be fixed. As far as templates go, I was under the impression that there are sample, or template releases under "Getty Images Model" and Getty Images Property", but there are none.It says No Getty Images forms found. The other template seems to be working. I have been messing around with it. So, is there a way to E-sign the releases? In other words, you have a subject you happened upon, they agree to allow you to photograph them, and would sign your model release. Is there a way to allow that with your iPhone and the App? In the agreement with the property owner, the opening line is "For valuable consideration received as _______. I being the legal owner of . . .(the property blah blah blah). In the case of Earl the Orchard owner, my arrangement with him is, I will provide him with photos that he can use for their business website, personal use and advertising of the business. I get to copyright the photos, so that I appear as the photographer, and I get to use the photos for my portfolio and self promotion. So, do I just spell out what he gets, basically as I have written, as being valuable considerations? My part is actually covered in the document in another part. Maybe this next question should be a new post, but lets try it here and see. I shoot photos of the Pick-your-own apple harvest festivities. I capture an image of a little kid taking a great big bite out of a carmel covered apple. Cute photo. The owner likes it. Wants to post it on the website. Cool right? Maybe. No model release, but then again, they are at a public event, on another's private property. No expectation of privacy. What if he uses that photo as well as other festivity photos for advertising in the local paper, or local TV station for the next years event. Is that a problem? Being a minor child, is that a (the) issue, or is there no issue? If it was an adult, and I turned, saw the opportunity, and captured it on the 200mm lens. Cool or not? At what point do I need to approach the person, if at all, and say, hey, I'm the event photographer, and would like to use your image for event promotion, as well as for my professional portfolio. Would you be willing to sign this model release? (then we get back to the digital signature issue with the iPhone app.) Thanks Brit-007, I'll have a look. Sep 08, 2012 at 02:46 PM

RDKirk Offline • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #8 · Model/Prop release Apps. but remember that some releases have been challenged legally if there was no exchange of something of value for signing a release. Where? There's no state in the US that requires anything more than "written permission." I would be interested in a case where it was ruled that an exchange of value was required...unless it was a case in which something of value was promised but not provided. If your release says you're providing "valuable consideration," it had better be a level of consideration that a court will consider sufficiently valuable. But there is no state that requires any consideration at all, just "written permission." Sep 08, 2012 at 09:33 PM

RDKirk Offline • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #9 · Model/Prop release Apps. I shoot photos of the Pick-your-own apple harvest festivities. I capture an image of a little kid taking a great big bite out of a carmel covered apple. Cute photo. The owner likes it. Wants to post it on the website. Cool right? Maybe. No model release, but then again, they are at a public event, on another's private property. No expectation of privacy. What if he uses that photo as well as other festivity photos for advertising in the local paper, or local TV station for the next years event. Is that a problem? Being a minor child, is that a (the) issue, or is there no issue? If it was an adult, and I turned, saw the opportunity, and captured it on the 200mm lens. Cool or not? At what point do I need to approach the person, if at all, and say, hey, I'm the event photographer, and would like to use your image for event promotion, as well as for my professional portfolio. Would you be willing to sign this model release? (then we get back to the digital signature issue with the iPhone app.) If the venue owner will use the image to solicit additional business (such as more patronage), that is a "commercial use," which requires a model release for every individual in the picture. Presuming you're not doing kiddie porn or anything suggestive of lasciviousness, current laws do not make a distinction between a photograph of a child or one of an adult (although some people think the laws do). A parent or legal guardian, of course, must sign for a minor. Whether I'd sign a release depends on the text of the release. I would not sign the average release you find on the Internet. Those releases typically give a photographer permission to use the image in any form imaginable, in any way imaginable, for any purpose imaginable, for all eternity and throughout the universe. I'd never sign a release as broad as those, unless I was being paid handsomely. Also, the release is needed by the user, not the photographer (unless he's also going to use them). The event venue needs a release of their own to use the images, and their release requirements differ from yours. They really ought to have their lawyer craft a release for them. Your needs are simpler. Sep 08, 2012 at 09:48 PM

billkoe Offline • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #10 · Model/Prop release Apps. RDKirk wrote: but remember that some releases have been challenged legally if there was no exchange of something of value for signing a release. Where? There's no state in the US that requires anything more than "written permission." I would be interested in a case where it was ruled that an exchange of value was required...unless it was a case in which something of value was promised but not provided. If your release says you're providing "valuable consideration," it had better be a level of consideration that a court will consider sufficiently valuable. But there is no state that requires any consideration at all, just "written permission." From West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2 In contract law consideration is required as an inducement to enter into a contract that is enforceable in the courts. It is an essential element for the formation of a contract. What constitutes sufficient consideration, however, has been the subject of continuing legal debate. Contracts and courts generally use the term valuable consideration to signify consideration sufficient to sustain an enforceable agreement. A model release is a contract. Take a look at a discussion of this on this forum: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=29012721 Make sure you're getting your law information from someone OTHER than me or anyone else on this or any other forum, Dennis. My ASMP app did include the Getty forms. The forms may be signed with a stylus or a finger. By the way, you "get to copyright the photos" regardless of any agreement with the orchard owner. You don't get to necessarily use them however you wish though. As a free lancer you own the copyright just by shooting them. There is a separate release on the ASMP app that allows you to use the images of models for your promotional use only. Many non-professional models expect the images taken of them to be used (as in your case) by the orchard only. They don't have the expectation that the images will end up in a collection for world-wide distribution. You and the model agree that you can use the image too for your promotions. That's all I've got for now but just remember, get real legal advice. I am a photographer, not a lawyer. Sep 09, 2012 at 12:04 AM

RDKirk Offline • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #11 · Model/Prop release Apps. A model release is a contract. Well, no. A model release is not a contract unless you write it as a contract. Again, every state in the US requires only "written permission." This does not have to be a contract. If you write a model release as a quid pro quo, then it will be a contract and fall under the vagaries of contract law, but it does not have to be written as a contract. Google for a bit for university model releases (real-world releases that you can find online), and you will see that not a single one ever provides for "valuable consideration." This has nothing to do with the fact that they are universities--that doesn't exempt them from state privacy rights laws. It has to do with the fact that a model release does not have to be a "contract." Check with Ed Greenberg. Sep 09, 2012 at 12:26 AM

Dennis M 1064 Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #12 · Model/Prop release Apps. Suddenly, I have very little interest in shooting this event. There needs to be a degree available in photography, A BPh. Bachelors in Photography, which consists of two years of study in commercial photography and two years of Law. I'll shoot it. Tell him to limit use to his website. I will put the photos of my choice in my portfolio, and not release them to the public, in any way they can be used beyond viewing, as a representation of what I can do as a photographer. This assumes of course, that I capture images that I am pleased to share. Sucks the life out of it really. Bit of a shame. Sep 09, 2012 at 01:05 AM

RustyBug Offline • • • • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #13 · Model/Prop release Apps. Dennis M 1064 wrote: Sucks the life out of it really. Bit of a shame. And therein lies the crux of the difference between hobby & professional (re: other threads asking the diff) One is for joy without the multitude of legal trappings and other considerations. The other is for money and encompasses all the encroaching do's & don'ts. It's been said before that a photo business is 90% business and 10% photography. Debatable as to the ratio ... but, it is there to a degree. Maybe not quite as bad as it seems up front (learning curve, etc.) That's not to say there isn't any joy attained in professional photography, but that's not the primary mission. +1 @ RDKirk ... model release is not (necessarily) a contract. Although a contract may contain provisions of release within it. +1 Also @ the end user is responsible for ensuring they have the appropriate releases for their intended usage ... just that the photographer often collects them, since they are obviously there with the model at the time of shoot ... whereas the end user would have to try and track them down afterwards (yeah right). Edited on Sep 09, 2012 at 04:12 PM · View previous versions Sep 09, 2012 at 01:40 AM

jeraldcook Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #14 · Model/Prop release Apps. RDKirk wrote: If you write a model release as a quid pro quo, then it will be a contract and fall under the vagaries of contract law, but it does not have to be written as a contract. This. Depending on how the agreement is drafted, it could be one or the other, or both. If your model release says the model releases their rights to the use of their image, AND you agree only to use the photos for x, y, and z, it is both a contract and release. The model releases the rights to their likeness (the model's consideration) and you agree to only use the photos for x, y, and z (the photographer's consideration). If you use the photos for w, you've breached the release/contract with the model. This is just one of the ways a lay person can inadvertently screw up a legal document so it's best to talk to an attorney. I am an attorney but you should seek independent legal counsel for your particular situation. Sep 09, 2012 at 02:46 PM

RDKirk Offline • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #15 · Model/Prop release Apps. jeraldcook wrote: RDKirk wrote: If you write a model release as a quid pro quo, then it will be a contract and fall under the vagaries of contract law, but it does not have to be written as a contract. This. Depending on how the agreement is drafted, it could be one or the other, or both. If your model release says the model releases their rights to the use of their image, AND you agree only to use the photos for x, y, and z, it is both a contract and release. The model releases the rights to their likeness (the model's consideration) and you agree to only use the photos for x, y, and z (the photographer's consideration). If you use the photos for w, you've breached the release/contract with the model. This is just one of the ways a lay person can inadvertently screw up a legal document so it's best to talk to an attorney. I am an attorney but you should seek independent legal counsel for your particular situation. And that is the problem with those forms that say "in return for valuable consideration." Models have come back later to say the "valuable consideration" was not valuable enough when the photographer has scored big on an image that he paid the model little for. My point, though, was that state privacy laws do not require the model to have received any kind of payment at all. They only require "written permission." A "valuable consideration" clause is not a necessity for a valid model release. Here is a reference: "Because the concept of consideration relates to contract law, releases that contain consideration clauses can create doubt regarding whether the consent is a condition of the contract or is an independent statement. Because consent by itself is sufficient to negate a claim that a model's privacy rights has been violated, adding a consideration clause to a release can weaken the legal protection because a court could find the consent invalid if for some reason it finds the contract to be unenforceable." Bert Krages, Esq. "Legal Handbook for Photographers - The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images, 2nd Ed.": Amherst Media, 2007 Sep 09, 2012 at 04:31 PM

jeraldcook Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #16 · Model/Prop release Apps. RDKirk I agree 100% with you and Mr. Bert Krages, Esq. A release should not contain the "in return for valuable consideration" language. That language is used in contracts because it creates a rebuttable presumption that each side received consideration, a necessary element to a valid contract. RDKirk wrote: A "valuable consideration" clause is not a necessity for a valid model release. I would go one step further and say that a release should not contain a "valuable consideration" statement as one runs the risk of having the document construed as a contract. Just clarifying, but again, we're on the same page. Sep 10, 2012 at 01:02 AM

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