Question for the Pros

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Niveks
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p.1 #1 · Question for the Pros

I am not a Pro, nor do I plan to give up my day job and try to make it as one.

Anyways, from time to time I like to browse Craigslist>Services>Creative Section and the Craigslist>Gigs>Creative Section. I mainly look to satisfy my curiosity to see how good the "Pros" are in my area. Now the majority of these people are not very good, nor would I really call them "Pros" but rather enthusiasts trying to make a buck. They offer cheap Senior Portrait Sessions and Wedding/Event Photography services where they provide an "edited" CD.

So I'm curious, and my question for the Pros is, how has this affected you and your business? Do you find that you are forced to compete with their low prices even though the quality of work is less? Do you have a price to compete for time and a cd to compete with them?

Like I said previously I am not a Pro, nor do I plan to, but I am very business minded, so I'm just curious to see what you guys are doing to to give yourselves a competitive edge.

Feb 14, 2012 at 02:33 AM

saelee
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p.1 #2 · Question for the Pros

If you are good at what you do and have high quality work to back it up you wouldn't need to worry about bottom feeding from CL and they are not your client. If someone is looking for a wedding photographer for $500, most likely quality is not there main concern or they don't care.

Kinda like how I can never imagine paying $4,000 for a watch or $1,000 for a hand bag. I know the $50 watch from sears does not have the same craftsmanship of the $4,000 watch, but the $50 watch is good enough for me. If the $50 watch didn't exist, I would still NEVER buy a $4,000 watch. I may spend $100 on a watch or I just won't wear one.

Feb 14, 2012 at 04:32 AM

colinm
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p.1 #3 · Question for the Pros

The kinds of people who hire photographers from Craigslist are not the kind of people I want to interact with. Ever.

I quit using CL entirely three or four years ago because, with nary an exception, suddenly everyone was either a freaky future murder suspect or clearly dropped on their head as a child. If creepy CL clients want to hire creepy CL photographers, more power to 'em.

Feb 14, 2012 at 05:31 AM

graycat
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p.1 #4 · Question for the Pros

saelee wrote:
If you are good at what you do and have high quality work to back it up you wouldn't need to worry about bottom feeding from CL and they are not your client. If someone is looking for a wedding photographer for $500, most likely quality is not there main concern or they don't care.

Kinda like how I can never imagine paying $4,000 for a watch or $1,000 for a hand bag. I know the $50 watch from sears does not have the same craftsmanship of the $4,000 watch, but the $50 watch is good enough for me. If the $50 watch didn't exist, I would still NEVER buy a $4,000 watch. I may spend $100 on a watch or I just won't wear one.

?? I don't understand your point. Perhaps the only option for some "bottom feeders" is the $500 wedding photographer because to them that is quality and if it cost any more they just wouldn't have a photographer at their wedding.

Feb 14, 2012 at 08:55 AM

RustyBug
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p.1 #5 · Question for the Pros

I don't think saelee is making a point against "bottom feeders" per se ... just that there is a market for each. I've known people (personally and in FM) who "refuse" to shop at Wal-mart as well as those who "refuse" to shop at Nordstroms ... as well as those who will shop at both.

How much concern do you think Nordstroms puts into competing with Wal-Mart, or vice-versa. While I'm certain they are mutually aware of each other and do keep a mindul eye to see if one is going to 'expand/encroach' on the other's market ... they really are two very different product lines, so little concern/effort is spent on thwarting the other by changing their business model / strategy ... even though they both sell clothing. If I want some Dickie's, Wrangler's or Levi's, I'm likely not going to Nordstrom's ... if I want something that is distinguishably different, I'm probably not going to Wal-mart. Wal-Mart & CL's are "low cost providers". Pro's and Nordtroms are not. Understanding the correlation of how "non-price determinants" and various business models come into play more than $$$ alone is a key component to this "age-old" scenario.

CL's and Pro's are really two different product lines, even though they both bring "pictures" to the market. Sure, there are some CL's who can (& may) work their way up through the tiers (good for them, i.e. paying some dues) en route to "top shelf", but so will their prices as their quality and overhead progresses through subsequent tiers. Likewise, there are some "Pro's" who aren't as good as a few CL's, but for the RULE (not the exception) ... they are two very different products. The marketplace is a multi-layered one ... whether that be cars & clothing, food & alcohol or photographic products and services.

Part of which is rooted in things like hmmm, a Studio, backup equipment, insurance, using professional lab services, coordination with other vendors, GOOD Post-Processing, GOOD printing, etc. These things all COST $$$ and a CL that is priced so low can't possibly be doing them (or not long before going broke). This isn't even to discuss the creative quality (could go either way), but keeping things objective.

A good (business & photo) CL may migrate toward becoming Pro ... and so will his pricing. Most, however will either only serve a market share that the Pro CANNOT routinely serve (due to overhead, not attitude), or will fall by the wayside. For the CL, the only way they can truly compete with the Pro ... is to become Pro.

You mention a fondness for business ... it is way more than price. The laws of supply and demand are rooted in non-price determinants ... a few links from the archives that you might find interesting.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/963070/0

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/952951/0?keyword=demand#9011684
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/952944/0?keyword=demand#9011628
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/952953/0?keyword=supply#9011691

Feb 14, 2012 at 02:31 PM

cineski
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p.1 #6 · Question for the Pros

Craigslist is the devil and I don't step foot there unless I'm selling some gear. However, there are markets where weekend warriors have destroyed a market. There's a member on FM that's in the midwest who charges very little (because he has a day job) then stated the real photographers in his town have gone out of business because they wouldn't lower their prices to compete. Cause and effect. Then he went on to state that it's the pro's fault for not getting with the times. He just doesn't get it. Photographers are becoming world renowned for being a bunch of folk who don't value what they do so the market starts to not value it, either. Back in my Wisconsin hometown, photographers are reportedly having massive problems because of underbidding weekend warriors who have no overhead and a cushy day job with health insurance who want to play pro photographer. If only they valued photography and charged accordingly for it. Heck, this is even happening in the commercial photography world. Recently heard a rep say something to the tune of "I can't believe how photographers just give their work away now."

So yes, this type of 'business' practice of severe underbidding has hurt the industry, especially with the current economic environment. But it's because the newest crop of photographers don't value what they create.

Feb 14, 2012 at 05:46 PM

graycat
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p.1 #7 · Question for the Pros

"You mention a fondness for business ... it is way more than price. The laws of supply and demand are rooted in non-price determinants ... a few links from the archives that you might find interesting."

I don't know much about business, so speaking strictly as a layman, it seems to me that it is a case what the market places value on. It is not fair to compare a Craigs List shopper with a Nordstroms shopper any more than it is to compare a Tag Heuer with a Casio. They serve different people for different reasons. The market does not care about studios, equipment costs, insurance, etc, it only cares about what it places value in and if that happens to be a Craigs List shooter or "weekend warrior" then that is where it places it value.

Frankly, I think the market is evolving, those that truly have established themselves and shoot at the Rolex and Nordstrom's level will continue to find success and the others will be competing with the weekend warriors. This has been the most interesting business culture to watch as it deals with the rapid change of technology and entry of new photographers into the market place. I am much happier as an observer.

Feb 14, 2012 at 08:44 PM

jefferies1
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p.1 #8 · Question for the Pros

Great question. When the economy took the big fall I could not book much of anything. I went from getting $3000-$10,000 a day to being rejected at $700.00. think I could hear some laughing because xyz will shoot it for $200.00. 100% of my calls were people wanting the cheap shots. I charge $150.00 for what many do for $25.00 and the $25.00 junk was what they wanted. My portfolio did not matter and it includes sessions with Presidents to famous actors so you think that should be worth something. It appeard to be almost worthless. I was ready to give up.

Fast forward to this year and my callers want quality. They no longer want cheap junk images many sell. They want what they see on my site and several are so happy they add a good tip to the balance paid. I also spent a lot of time going into detail about how I run my business. I show video of how I shoot a portrait and why it takes 30-45 minutes per image in post processing to take a great image to the next level. In contrast to the shoot and burn photographer who has no concept of what a real finished photo should look like.
Same for my convention and product business. I prove why I am worth more money using the video to show how every image is color checked or corrected, fine tuned and photos are selected to be on the finished image list. I finally got my old day rate again and the client thought it was a bargain. (should have asked more)

I also stress my business location and professional insurance coverage. Don't have to meet me at some coffee shop or have a stranger come to your home for a photo, or wait for the weather to be good for outside shoots. This alone makes me stand apart from the beginners 95% of the time.

I think things go in cycles. People will always want quality but do fall into the bargain mode when all you hear is doom and gloom. Another issue is face book. If you look at the junk posted by personal and business posters it is amazing. This brings the expectation of what quality looks like to a new low. Again it takes time to swing back. Many business owners thought they could get away with junk but have slowly learned it did not pay off.

Feb 15, 2012 at 12:32 AM

marti.g3
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p.1 #9 · Question for the Pros

The pendulum is starting to swing back towards quality. And thats a great thing for working professionals. Part timers who dabble in the profession for pocket change really lowered the perception of our profession by clients. I see now that most people that I meet want "quality" because their sister, brother, friend etc. hired some Joe blow who ruined their photos and they can't ever get those moments back.

It was just a matter of time. Photography is more than just pushing a button. It's about "knowing" what to capture, making sure you are in the right place at the right time, planning, having the right tool for the job, all of the items that any professional has in his arsenal in any profession.

I see so many wannabes who get into the profession thinking they will make some easy bucks, but when they see how much work it is, or the problems they encounter because they screwed something up, they eventually leave after a couple of years or sooner.

The "wannabes" hurt the industry because they lowered the expectations of the public and that affected all photographers. We had to re educate the public.

Feb 15, 2012 at 01:12 AM

RustyBug
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p.1 #10 · Question for the Pros

marti.g3 wrote:
lowered the expectations of the public
We had to re educate the public.

+1 ... as I've written before, this is a key element in the antidote.

"Buyer's expectations" is one of the non-price determinants ... imo ... the most significantant one that has been the cause for the shift(s), as I've previously written to. The public has been bombarded by OEM marketing to make them believe that it is so incredibly easy to produce quality images that they believe it and EXPECT it to be true that a CL with a "fancy camera" can do as good as a Pro. Because that's what they expect, THEN they see no reason to pay a Pro rate instead of a CL rate. It's not until people learn the difference (often times the hard way) that their expectations return again to EXPECT a Pro to be worthy of a different rate.

Good to hear @ the tide is starting to turn that people have learned to realize / expect a difference. Sad that a lot of crap and devaluation has proliferated things along the way. The laws of supply & demand are not moved by price alone. It is the underlying factors that cause the marketplace to change ... hence, "non-price determinants". To me, the OEM marketing (and software marketing) does more damage by altering buyer's expectations into an unrealistic realm than CL's do by low-balling price ... CL's just have exploited it to their benefit and continue to proliferate the fantasy started by the OEM's.

Buyers have been duped ... and it wasn't just by the CL's. I'd like to see a CL pull off the Ashton "canon" shot that Nikon has in their spot. Heck, most pro's would have trouble with that shot, and while we all know that it wasn't the camera that made the shot ... the public believes the camera had something to do with.

Feb 15, 2012 at 06:59 AM

marti.g3
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p.1 #11 · Question for the Pros

In my market, there are two types of "wedding" photographers. There are those who are "connected" with high end venues and wedding planners and book higher end weddings because they get referred.

Then there are the rest. Getting on the "list" with higher end venues and planners is like trying to break into the Pentagon. Only harder.

Feb 16, 2012 at 05:59 PM


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