24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes? - FM Forums

Home · Register · Search · Software · Hosting · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

FM Forum Rules
Canon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell
1 2 3 4 end

Archive 2012 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Sunny Sra
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #1 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Lars Johnsson wrote:
I own both the 24 TS-E II and the 17 TS-E. They are both really great lenses. I probably use the 24 a lot more than the other. But the 17 is a more special and unique lens

+1
I've been using my TS-E more than the 16-35.

Feb 01, 2012 at 01:09 AM

John Mills
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #2 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Fred Miranda wrote:
John Mills wrote:
What programs are everyone using to stitch their panos here?

Photoshop CS5 PhotoMerge.

Thanks Fred.

Feb 01, 2012 at 01:20 AM

Mike K
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #3 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Sunny Sra wrote:
how low can you go?

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Even with the tripod nearly on the ground and no center column, with this type of tripod the camera can be no lower than the height of your ballhead slot. For full utilization of tilt lens capability, I consider this tripod position not low enough!

If one were shooting on a flat surface, to be used as the focal plane, the max of 8 degrees of tilt on the 17 TSE lens would place the center of the lens at 4.8" (12.2cm) above that focal plane. The camera body of a 5DII with RRS L bracket adds approximately 2 " (landscape orientation) or 3.2" (portrait) of depth beneath the lens center. A 1D style body with a RRS L bracket will add 3.5" of depth below the lens center in either landscape or portrait mode. This means the 5DII camera body needs to be 2.8" from the ground for landscape orientation or 1.6" from the deck in portrait mode. A 1D body will need to be 1.3" from the ground in either orientation.

The conclusion from these calculations is that to use the full extent of low angle tilt for the 17mm lens, one needs to get the bottom of the camera body 1.3-3" from the ground.
The only way to do this is to orient the ball head parallel to the ground, or pointing downwards slightly. One creative solution is shown by jcolwell above, and I showed another with a horizontal center column. Explorer style tripods work really well too, a great solution for this situation as the center column can angle downwards. If the ballhead sits upright and rests on a tripod base it may never be capable of utilizing the full tilt capability of the 17 TSE.

Of course there are many artistic or technical reasons for not wanting to use full tilt movements on the 17 TSE, but that's another consideration.
tilt tables here
http://www.davidsummerhayes.com/Focusing%20the%20tilt-shift%20lens.pdf
Mike K

Feb 01, 2012 at 02:17 AM

Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #4 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Mike K wrote:
Sunny Sra wrote:
how low can you go?

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Even with the tripod nearly on the ground and no center column, with this type of tripod the camera can be no lower than the height of your ballhead slot. For full utilization of tilt lens capability, I consider this tripod position not low enough!

If one were shooting on a flat surface, to be used as the focal plane, the max of 8 degrees of tilt on the 17 TSE lens would place the center of the lens at 4.8" (12.2cm) above that focal plane. The camera body of a 5DII with RRS L bracket adds approximately 2 " (landscape orientation) or 3.2" (portrait) of depth beneath the lens center. A 1D style body with a RRS L bracket will add 3.5" of depth below the lens center in either landscape or portrait mode. This means the 5DII camera body needs to be 2.8" from the ground for landscape orientation or 1.6" from the deck in portrait mode. A 1D body will need to be 1.3" from the ground in either orientation.

The conclusion from these calculations is that to use the full extent of low angle tilt for the 17mm lens, one needs to get the bottom of the camera body 1.3-3" from the ground.
The only way to do this is to orient the ball head parallel to the ground, or pointing downwards slightly. One creative solution is shown by jcolwell above, and I showed another with a horizontal center column. Explorer style tripods work really well too, a great solution for this situation as the center column can angle downwards. If the ballhead sits upright and rests on a tripod base it may never be capable of utilizing the full tilt capability of the 17 TSE.

tilt tables here
http://www.davidsummerhayes.com/Focusing%20the%20tilt-shift%20lens.pdf
Mike K

Actually with the GT3541 and RRS BH-55 ballhead, the camera can do much lower than shown on the picture! If you drop the ball in the drop-notch and connect your camera plate to the clamp, it almost touches the floor! It's a very quick and stable alternative set-up.
For this to work, you will need a L-Plate on your camera. In the case of the 5DII, you can get the RSS L-plate (Kirk and Acratech also offer one). This will work with your camera in landscape or portrait orientation.

Feb 01, 2012 at 02:27 AM

RobDickinson
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #5 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Good info people!

Mike thanks for the link have seen the website but thats a nice bedtime reading doco!

24tse, new tripod and head + RSS L plate will come one day!

Feb 01, 2012 at 02:41 AM

Lars Johnsson
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #6 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Fred Miranda wrote:
Sunny Sra wrote:
Fred Miranda wrote:
Mike K wrote:
Fred Miranda wrote:

Can you believe it was discontinued? This is one great tripod. They are ready to roll out the new GT3542. As far as I can tell from their website, it will not go as low and will be a little heavier...

Are you sure about that. I don't belive it's discontinued. And they still sell it in every shop I use when buying tripods.
Remember that the GT 3541 and similar numbers exist in both the Systematic tripods and Mountaineer tripods series. And the Mountainer tripods have a couple of new which ends with a number 2.
If not telling if the tripod is a Systematic or Mountaineer it's very easy to look at the wrong numbers

Feb 01, 2012 at 02:59 AM

Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #7 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Lars Johnsson wrote:
Fred Miranda wrote:
Sunny Sra wrote:
Fred Miranda wrote:
Mike K wrote:
Fred Miranda wrote:

Can you believe it was discontinued? This is one great tripod. They are ready to roll out the new GT3542. As far as I can tell from their website, it will not go as low and will be a little heavier...

Are you sure about that. I don't belive it's discontinued. And they still sell it in every shop I use when buying tripods.
Remember that the GT 3541 and similar numbers exist in both the Systematic tripods and Mountaineer tripods series. And the Mountainer tripods have a couple of new which ends with a number 2.
If not telling if the tripod is a Systematic or Mountaineer it's very easy to look at the wrong numbers

I think stores may be selling it until the stock is gone. At B&H, it's already out of stock. At least the one with no center column (the one we are discussing here)
See here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/567550-REG/Gitzo_GT3541LS_GT3541LS_Systematic_6X_Carbon.html

Feb 01, 2012 at 03:10 AM

Lars Johnsson
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #8 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

"edit"
when checking I can see that Gitzo have a newr version on a few other Systematic tripods

Edited on Feb 01, 2012 at 04:29 AM · View previous versions

Feb 01, 2012 at 04:14 AM

Tom K.
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #9 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Most of Darwin Wiggett's landscape work was done with a 24-TSE. His work is breath taking.

http://www.darwinwiggett.com/gallery.php?gallery=rockies

Feb 01, 2012 at 04:20 AM

Mickey
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #10 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

The RRS TP-243 ground pod will put you 1.9" above the ground with good stability. It's very well built.

http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=TP-243&type=0&eq=&desc=TP-243-Ground-Level-Tripod&key=it

Feb 01, 2012 at 03:31 PM

ryanpfleger
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #11 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

I have a tripod similar to Sunny's, the 1325 with no center column, same ballhead in fact. My other option is a much lighter GT1530 WITH center column, but I can reverse it so the center column and thus camera extend down below the legs. I can go as low as I like that way. I am interested in that gorillapod though. I can see its usefulness, wrapped around an ice ax planted in the snow, or a couple ski/trekking poles to gain some height. Is the Joby ballhead any good, and if not what head would be appropriate? I suppose you can get a lot of adjustment out of the legs alone sans head.

Feb 01, 2012 at 05:00 PM

Mike K
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #12 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

ryanpfleger wrote:
I have a tripod similar to Sunny's, the 1325 with no center column, same ballhead in fact. My other option is a much lighter GT1530 WITH center column, but I can reverse it so the center column and thus camera extend down below the legs. I can go as low as I like that way. I am interested in that gorillapod though. I can see its usefulness, wrapped around an ice ax planted in the snow, or a couple ski/trekking poles to gain some height. Is the Joby ballhead any good, and if not what head would be appropriate? I suppose you can get a lot of adjustment out of the legs alone sans head.

Ryan,
I suggest that you get used to your new 24 TSE II before considering more gear for tilt /shift shooting. There are several other issues you will discover when trying to adjust tilt/focus when very close to the ground. Such as: difficulty seeing through the viewfinder or even getting close enough to the LCD without laying in wet sand, or needing two hands for fine tilt adjustment, one for the lock knob and one for the tilt knob while simultaneously watching the LV 10X, or not making out the LCD due to glare, or operating your camera upside down with the shutter against the ground, or using an angle finder C at 2.5x and never seeing the corners of the frame for tilt adjustment, or using an axillary LCD and having the HDMI or remote cable get in the way of the ball head clamp, or trying to adjust GND filter position, or...... Plenty of time to practice and come up with your work around strategies for various situations.

When you get your 24 TSE II lens, practice both shift and tilt in your living room or hallway and in your drive way to become familiar with the controls in a normal shooting position as well as at low angle. These fine adjustments can be difficult to maximize and you don't want to be struggling when the good light is fading fast. Read the article I linked to in this thread regarding tilt and focus.
After several months of use you will get a feeling for what works for your style of tilt/shift shooting. Enjoy your new lens, it is among Canon's best.
Mike K

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Feb 01, 2012 at 09:14 PM

skyisland
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #13 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Love that last shot. Keep more coming!

Feb 02, 2012 at 07:55 PM

stanj
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #14 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

As for putting the tripod close to the ground, I've had great success with the big Giottos CF tripods, which are basically a knockoff of some Gitzos but with the funny column thing. This shot shows it shooting out of a car window:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Great for lightning storms. You can just imagine that you can use it turned upside down and then reach literally to the ground, with the hot shoe touching the dirt. I don't have a shot of that online, but it works. The tripod is insanely sturdy. I use it for nigh exposures where I want the firmest footing, and when I need to do bizarre things with the column. For daily life I use the RRS TVC-24 with BH-40, which is lighter but nowhere as flexible.

Feb 02, 2012 at 10:28 PM

artd
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #15 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Both are great lenses but the TSE24II is my favorite lens ever. The thing with the 24 is that you can shift and flat stitch to get a field of view close to what you could get from the 17. (Yes you can flat stitch the 17 too...which is a ridiculously wide field of view and, while pretty cool, is in reality not often very practical for what I'm shoting) Typically I flat stitch horizontally with the camera in portrait orientation but on occasion I flat stitch vertically

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Forty Shades of Green by Art Domagala, on Flickr

Feb 03, 2012 at 03:36 AM

campyone
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #16 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

RobDickinson wrote:
I have the same issue! . . . How easy is it to stitch TSE shifted images, I understand you need to move the camera rather than the lens when shifting? How is that acheived?

In quickly skimming this thread I don't see an answer to this question. Here's an article on how it's achieved.

http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html

In using the 24mm TS-EII I actually haven't noticed a parallax problem. Which could be because I've mostly done vistas with it, not much in the way of close foregrounds.

Feb 03, 2012 at 06:25 PM

Peter Figen
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #17 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

It's always best to shift the back (or in this case, the camera) for a stitched image, but in many images it doesn't matter. The more significant three dimensional detail you have close to the lens, the more you're going to be bitten by parallax. I use marks on an RRS camera plate to slide the camera left and right (or up and down) to compensate for the lens shift. As long as I'm within half a millimeter or so of being right on, everything stitches perfectly using PhotoMerge. For many images, I just don't bother and they still stitch fine, but it does depend on the type of image you're shooting. The higher the camera position, the more tolerance you're typically going to have. The great thing about having a digital camera is that you can go out and shoot a few test images to see how well your own images are going to work and then work out the technique that is required for your vision.

Feb 03, 2012 at 06:47 PM

Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #18 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Peter Figen wrote:
It's always best to shift the back (or in this case, the camera) for a stitched image, but in many images it doesn't matter. The more significant three dimensional detail you have close to the lens, the more you're going to be bitten by parallax. I use marks on an RRS camera plate to slide the camera left and right (or up and down) to compensate for the lens shift. As long as I'm within half a millimeter or so of being right on, everything stitches perfectly using PhotoMerge. For many images, I just don't bother and they still stitch fine, but it does depend on the type of image you're shooting. The higher the camera position, the more tolerance you're typically going to have. The great thing about having a digital camera is that you can go out and shoot a few test images to see how well your own images are going to work and then work out the technique that is required for your vision.

You could always shift the camera instead by getting this adapter:
Rear-Shift-Adapter. It works on the 17mm and 24mm TSE lenses.
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Zu-Besuch-bei-Zoerk
Best,
Fred

Feb 03, 2012 at 07:18 PM

Peter Figen
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #19 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

That's interesting, but poses a couple of problems. One is if you want or need to tilt or swing, this puts that behind the point of attachment. The other is that it looks like it's clamping to the focusing ring itself, which would make focusing difficult and two, not really sure if I'd like to support a 1 series camera by the helicoid.

Feb 03, 2012 at 08:37 PM

Mike K
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #20 · 24TS-E or 17TS-E for landscapes?

Here is a lens collar made specifically for the 24 and 17 TSE lens mounts. It looks pretty slick and still allows tilt. However mounted vertically as shown, it only allows horizontal shifts. To do vertical shifts one has to rotate the tripod standoff to horizontal.

http://www.hartblei.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm

If there is any concern about parallax, I counter shift the body to keep the lens immobile.
Mike K

Feb 03, 2012 at 11:40 PM

1 2 3 4 end
FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 4 end