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Archive 2011 · Giving Discounts

  
 
TRReichman
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p.6 #1 · Giving Discounts


Sergio Mottola wrote:
that's what i mean, brothaman. you're not qualified BECAUSE you're not interested


I'm simply uninterested in discussing it here.

- trr



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:01 PM
Jed Eltom
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p.6 #2 · Giving Discounts


My weddings start at 2000. Most of my packages go over that amount as they add a la carte options. I turn a decent profit, and *knock on wood* and thank God, I get enough clients. I met my goal for this year, and I'm hoping I'll have more clients next year.

TRR, you are very wrong. I've had married couples come up to me at weddings and say, "I wish you took our wedding photos. We love your work, instead we got horrible photos that we can't bear to look at." They paid 3500 and guess who took their photos? A photographer who also owns a marketing firm.

Just because you are everywhere and you have heavy marketing, that doesn't mean that you produce nice work or that people love you. It simply means that you are a really good scam artist.



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:26 PM
monoatomic72
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p.6 #3 · Giving Discounts


Inku Yo wrote:
Do you have an office or a studio? Do you pay for advertising/marketing? Do you purchase office supplies, printing supplies, office equipment, memory cards, cameras? Do you pay for any continuing education? Do you attend workshops? Do you buy thank you gifts? Do you feed your clients?

If you answered yes to any of those, here's a follow up question... what quality of those things are you buying? Sure, you can buy cheap stuff that will "get you by" but how does that make you look in front of your clients?

Something of a no-brainer - memory cards. I happen to
...Show more

I know there are outlaying costs that I don't have because I choose not to have them. I understand that others have a higher cost to run their business and I understand that as well. To answer some of your questions,
1. No I don't have a studio, but I do have an office for client meetings. It's a space where I can talk with clients in privacy. It's a commercial space, but it's cheap for rent and it allows me to showcase my products on the walls and provides a greater feel of legitimacy to my work. I would like to someday move into a studio space as I have other photographic interests besides weddings, but that is a future idea and not one that fits my business at the moment.

2. Yes I advertise. I make it a point however to think of more creative advertising ideas than simply paying someone to do SEO on my site or putting a lifeless ad into a magazine. I've always been a huge fan of guerrilla marketing and I rely heavily on that. I also tend to lean towards the swapping of marketing with other companies.

3. Yes I pay for office supplies, but it's maybe a few hundred dollars a year. Maybe.
I do pay for cameras/lenses/equipment but there isn't a piece of equipment I own that costs more than $900 on the used market. I came into this with the gear I had and I've spent about $2000 in the past year on gear. I don't subscribe to wasting money on items I don't need in this department. I don't need ISO 12800 to take a picture. I don't need $1700 lenses when I can get similar enough performance out of a $600 lens. It's just that simple. I would never think of paying $300 for a memory card. I also don't need 32 gig cards, so I can't really comment on that. I will say however that I do very diligent shopping for my equipment. I live on sites like Slickdeals and other tech places.

4. Continuing education can be found at the library or online for free. Workshops are a money sink. To me at least. I know others find what they are looking for when attending a workshop or a photographer shoot out, but I just don't see the appeal. I have a few fellow photographers I talk to from time to time in a creative sense, but for the most part information is out there if you look for it.

5. I do send thank you gifts, usually something person specific. I tend not to feed clients as I run my business in a different way than most people, but I have on occasion brought clients out because we've made a connection outside of just the business side of our acquaintance.

6. I understand the ideas behind integrating this and that to make your business run more efficiently, but you don't need high dollar software and technology to run an efficient business. It of course makes it a lot easier, but having a scanner to integrate receipts into Quickbooks isn't a make or break it for productivity to me.

As far as how I look in front of my clients, I think that is a very subjective thing to discuss. To some people, I may look "lower" than someone who has a giant studio and who runs full page ads in bridal magazines, but that is probably a result of the people I go after as opposed to anything that I could be slighted for.

I know this probably doesn't compute with a lot of you, especially the ones who are always advocating go bigger/charge more/get better clients, but I actually am marketing to the lower-middle end brides. I know it's contrary to the belief that we as a industry should be pushing to get into the highest end that we can, but for me, and what I do, I live on the opposite end of the spectrum. I think there is definitely a place for a well oiled, well run business in the lower end that can completely trump all of the flaky, poorly run businesses. I think it is a much bigger pool of people to market to and there is no reason you can't run a successful business attracting from that client pool.



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:30 PM
monoatomic72
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p.6 #4 · Giving Discounts


As far as not being able to live off $3500 a wedding, I was just calculating, business wise, what it takes to run to a profit. I wasn't insinuating that I can live off $1200 weddings. I think we were talking about two different things. Business profitability vs Business profitability/affording your lifestyle. If you ran your business according to your lifestyle needs, and my needs completely counter yours, there obviously is going to be a wide margin of difference between the two.


Mar 24, 2011 at 01:35 PM
hardlyboring
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p.6 #5 · Giving Discounts


Jed Eltom wrote:
TRR, you are very wrong. I've had married couples come up to me at weddings and say, "I wish you took our wedding photos. We love your work, instead we got horrible photos that we can't bear to look at." They paid 3500 and guess who took their photos? A photographer who also owns a marketing firm.

Just because you are everywhere and you have heavy marketing, that doesn't mean that you produce nice work or that people love you. It simply means that you are a really good scam artist.


You mean TRR is right. TRR is saying that the actual photography part of the business is just that..only part...
I would venture to say that you would not be salty about this other guy if he charged less than you....
You are free to charge and to potentially make as much money as you want. Does not matter what your photos look like. Does that really upset some people.. yes it most certainly does.

Basically you can take awesome photos and suck at the business side and probably make decent money.
On the flip side you can also take crappy pictures and be really good at business and make decent money.
Imagine if you are good at both.

People, especially people here waste time worrying about what others do. TRR is right, spend that Saturday improving your business. I know tons of people who used to live on FM who now have moved on because truthfully it does waste a lot of productive time.




Mar 24, 2011 at 01:36 PM
maxwell1295
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p.6 #6 · Giving Discounts


Evan Baines wrote:
Why do almost all of the photographers who charge less than that value seem to have a day job or a spouse with one? Why don't you see most of the photographers charging $3500 and up driving BMW's and Mercs if their revenue is so much in excess of expenses?

If you have a non-photographic primary revenue stream and can blur the lines between personal (hobby) expenses and business expenses, it is much easier to convince yourself that you are making much more money than you actually are.


Bingo...



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:37 PM
lisy78
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p.6 #7 · Giving Discounts


Inku Yo wrote:
Do you have an office or a studio? Do you pay for advertising/marketing? Do you purchase office supplies, printing supplies, office equipment, memory cards, cameras? Do you pay for any continuing education? Do you attend workshops? Do you buy thank you gifts? Do you feed your clients?

If you answered yes to any of those, here's a follow up question... what quality of those things are you buying? Sure, you can buy cheap stuff that will "get you by" but how does that make you look in front of your clients?

Something of a no-brainer - memory cards. I happen to
...Show more

U needs to buy your CF cards on black friday. Nuff said. I buy Extreme (dunno if they say PRo or not... but never had a buffer problem) and I pay quite a bit less than $300 per 32gb. Not difficult to pre-plan the purchase around that known good date



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:43 PM
Jed Eltom
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p.6 #8 · Giving Discounts


32 Gb Extreme cards ? Reciept scanner ? Studio ?
Why do I have to buy these things to be professional ?

So my 8Gb Lexar Professional cards make me an amateur ?

Also, office equipment?? Some of you might be buying some really high end staples.

Continuing education. Oh yes, this new mentality about how photographers have to put more money into other photographers' pockets with these workshops that don't really teach anything.

No wonder some of you have to charge an arm and a leg to cover your costs.



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:45 PM
lisy78
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p.6 #9 · Giving Discounts


Evan Baines wrote:
I'd encourage you to check your numbers with a real, qualified accountant. Perhaps you will prove all of us wrong!

But here is a question for you if we are wrong: Why do almost all of the photographers who charge less than that value seem to have a day job or a spouse with one? Why don't you see most of the photographers charging $3500 and up driving BMW's and Mercs if their revenue is so much in excess of expenses?

If you have a non-photographic primary revenue stream and can blur the lines between personal (hobby) expenses and business
...Show more

Yous guys and your constant ragging on us dual income peeps are a pain in my butt ... heck I'm the jackass who said my CRB is estimated at $8.5K per year... and that's without any CGS.... some of us with day jobs actually do have the skillz to figure out how we're doing

Just ragging on ya Evan, but it's constantly presented this way...



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:46 PM
lisy78
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p.6 #10 · Giving Discounts


TRReichman wrote:
The big difference here is managerial accounting. Per-job profitability is not the way to look at it. When looking at that you are only looking at your cost-of-good-sold and not your general expenses.

It also depends on the life that the business is supposed to be supporting. As far as I know a guy like Sergio is young and single, and his expenses are less than mine. And people who have kids or debt or other responsibilities will need more. So if Sergio can do it at $3500 that's great. My number is over $5000 per wedding (and I have
...Show more

Amen.

I'm working hard towards making our business a strongly profitable income stream...albeit a smaller one than my primary income... and sometime it blows my mind thinking of how little some of the full timers expect to make. Don't you people invest for retirement, for buying homes, for paying for college, for medical expenses, for vacations... WTF?!?!? Is it really fun to be likely to only slightly emerge over the poverty line just 'cause you're doing what you love?

Bah.



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:49 PM
Evan Baines
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p.6 #11 · Giving Discounts


lisy78 wrote:
Yous guys and your constant ragging on us dual income peeps are a pain in my butt ... heck I'm the jackass who said my CRB is estimated at $8.5K per year... and that's without any CGS.... some of us with day jobs actually do have the skillz to figure out how we're doing

Just ragging on ya Evan, but it's constantly presented this way...


I was suggesting that having a day job or a spouse with one CAN enable a photographer to live in the land of make-believe with regards to profitability, not that it has to.

I am not ragging on anyone who chooses to do photography part-time or who has a succesful spouse. Goodness knows I am a firm believer in the sugar-mamma approach to life.



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:52 PM
lisy78
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p.6 #12 · Giving Discounts


Jed Eltom wrote:
My weddings start at 2000. Most of my packages go over that amount as they add a la carte options. I turn a decent profit, and *knock on wood* and thank God, I get enough clients. I met my goal for this year, and I'm hoping I'll have more clients next year.

TRR, you are very wrong. I've had married couples come up to me at weddings and say, "I wish you took our wedding photos. We love your work, instead we got horrible photos that we can't bear to look at." They paid 3500 and guess who took their
...Show more

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

People buy subpar products ALL the time. It is the buyer's responsibility to research a product before purchasing it. It should NOT be rocket science to figure out what you need to see from a photographer in order to ascertain whether their work is acceptable to you or not.

The vast majority of peeps out there that ar doing what you are talking about are not in fact horrendous photographers, but OK photographers who are pouring all their energy into marketing. Their clients might end up loving YOUR work or MY work or who knows who else's work MORE but these people are usually putting out completely usable products. The exceptions typically end up in the news.



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:55 PM
jcolman
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p.6 #13 · Giving Discounts


This is something that has got me thinking.

Many people say that you should be marketing to the brides who will spend $5000 for wedding photography. That it's damn near impossible to make a living shooting weddings for less than $3500. Many people also preach that we should all be pricing our services much, much higher otherwise we're in danger of polluting the industry. People also say that with a little work, you can go from charging $2000 a wedding to charging $5000 a wedding.

Yet, nobody has every said exactly how does one go about doing this? We're all eager to share our knowledge about cameras, lights, etc. but if the industry would benefit by all of use charging at least $3500 per wedding, why isn't the knowledge of how to do so being bantered about?

Sure I understand that people want to protect their turf but if everyone starting charging more, would not everyones business benefit?

Food for thought.



Mar 24, 2011 at 01:58 PM
Inku Yo
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p.6 #14 · Giving Discounts


Jed Eltom wrote:
32 Gb Extreme cards ? Reciept scanner ? Studio ?
Why do I have to buy these things to be professional ?

So my 8Gb Lexar Professional cards make me an amateur ?

Also, office equipment?? Some of you might be buying some really high end staples.

Continuing education. Oh yes, this new mentality about how photographers have to put more money into other photographers' pockets with these workshops that don't really teach anything.

No wonder some of you have to charge an arm and a leg to cover your costs.


Nowhere did I say that you're not a professional if you didn't have these things. Sureyou can skimp and buy cheaper and inferior products and deliverables to give you better margins. But what does that say about you to your clients?

Maybe you like having to manually input tons of receipts into a spreadsheet, I don't.

You can charge 2k per wedding an make a profit. Anyone can. But can you make a LIVING shooting them? How many weddings would you need to shoot to pay for your car, mortgage, child care, health insurance, savings, vacations... I think you get the point.

I happen to like nice things and live in one of the most expensive areas of the country. My rates are what they are and people are bookin me. I think the quality of my work and the experience I provide is well worth it.



Mar 24, 2011 at 02:06 PM
lisy78
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p.6 #15 · Giving Discounts


jcolman wrote:
This is something that has got me thinking.

Many people say that you should be marketing to the brides who will spend $5000 for wedding photography. That it's damn near impossible to make a living shooting weddings for less than $3500. Many people also preach that we should all be pricing our services much, much higher otherwise we're in danger of polluting the industry. People also say that with a little work, you can go from charging $2000 a wedding to charging $5000 a wedding.

Yet, nobody has every said exactly how does one go about doing this? We're all eager
...Show more

The last time hat I byatched about the same thing, we ended up losing TRR for months.

:P j/k


Edited on Mar 24, 2011 at 02:41 PM · View previous versions



Mar 24, 2011 at 02:11 PM
TRReichman
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p.6 #16 · Giving Discounts


jcolman wrote:
This is something that has got me thinking.

Many people say that you should be marketing to the brides who will spend $5000 for wedding photography. That it's damn near impossible to make a living shooting weddings for less than $3500. Many people also preach that we should all be pricing our services much, much higher otherwise we're in danger of polluting the industry. People also say that with a little work, you can go from charging $2000 a wedding to charging $5000 a wedding.

Yet, nobody has every said exactly how does one go about doing this? We're all eager
...Show more

Eat up


Step one - put $5000 on the bottom of your price list. Step two - put $15,000 on the top of your price list. Step three - figure out why someone would want to hire you (in client-facing terminology). Step four - communicate this effectively.

Caveats - stop charging $2000 for a wedding. Stop trying to impress other photographers. Stop judging yourself in comparison to other photographers. Have an opinion. Be willing to turn some people off. Be willing to commit to believing that one thing is more important than everything else. Forget about satisfying expectations. Forget about convention.

I started a whole blog to deal with this and spend a ton of time helping other photographers do it. The info is out there. If you want someone to work you through it and define what your process could be, you will probably have to invest in that.

- trr



Mar 24, 2011 at 02:22 PM
Jed Eltom
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p.6 #17 · Giving Discounts


jcolman wrote:
People also say that with a little work, you can go from charging $2000 a wedding to charging $5000 a wedding.

Yet, nobody has every said exactly how does one go about doing this? We're all eager to share our knowledge about cameras, lights, etc. but if the industry would benefit by all of use charging at least $3500 per wedding, why isn't the knowledge of how to do so being bantered about?

Sure I understand that people want to protect their turf but if everyone starting charging more, would not everyones business benefit?


I applaud you. It's so easy for some to say charge more, or don't give discounts. None would ever help you in a direct way. When I first came to FM, I thought I can just PM the photogs that post here and just ask for help or advice. I quickly learned that it just doesn't work that way.



Mar 24, 2011 at 02:27 PM
monoatomic72
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p.6 #18 · Giving Discounts


Inku Yo wrote:
Nowhere did I say that you're not a professional if you didn't have these things. Sureyou can skimp and buy cheaper and inferior products and deliverables to give you better margins. But what does that say about you to your clients?

Maybe you like having to manually input tons of receipts into a spreadsheet, I don't.

You can charge 2k per wedding an make a profit. Anyone can. But can you make a LIVING shooting them? How many weddings would you need to shoot to pay for your car, mortgage, child care, health insurance, savings, vacations... I think you get the
...Show more

You are making a lot of assumptions here.
One being that skimping on equipment some how translates to skimping on deliverables.

I get my albums from companies that most people here use. I get my prints from a professional lab. I usually proof my album design by a friend who works as a graphic designer. My clients get very good quality items from me, there isn't skimping on that end.

Yes anyone can make a profit from a 2k wedding, and yes you can make a LIVING shooting them. You choose the lifestyle you live. You live in NYC, your rent on your apartment alone must be in the high $1700 range. Your studio space must be up in that range as well. You need to be charging what you do to afford that lifestyle. I don't. I can drive into NYC as I live close enough and I could effectively market in your backyard from where I'm living. The difference? My meeting space and my apartment come in under a $1100. No I don't live in the ghetto.
I don't have kids and don't need daycare.
I recently sold the car I was making payments on to downgrade to one I don't have to. Later this month I'm taking a 26 state and 1 Canadian city road trip. 21 days. Total cost? $1750. I took time to plan this trip and it's going to be an amazing vacation for me. Most people would spend upwards of $7000 for the same trip.
I have a savings account I pad with every wedding, I have a trading account I put money into as well and make money off of as well.
Health insurance is the only thing I am lacking in and that is mostly because I think it's a waste at my present age. I've been to a doctor once in the past 5 years. I go to a dental school for cleanings and it's cheap. The only thing I pay out of pocket for are my glasses.

It's quite obvious that my lifestyle and yours are completely different, but that doesn't mean I couldn't make a living charging $2k a wedding.

I think one big thing people forget is that we see the world through our own perspective and it's very hard not to project our own ideals onto someone's situation. The mindset that because I can't do this or that, someone else in the same position can't. Or the reverse, if I can do this or I know how to do that, so should everyone else.



Mar 24, 2011 at 02:33 PM
jcolman
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p.6 #19 · Giving Discounts


TRReichman wrote:
Eat up

Step one - put $5000 on the bottom of your price list. Step two - put $15,000 on the top of your price list. Step three - figure out why someone would want to hire you (in client-facing terminology). Step four - communicate this effectively.

Caveats - stop charging $2000 for a wedding. Stop trying to impress other photographers. Stop judging yourself in comparison to other photographers. Have an opinion. Be willing to turn some people off. Be willing to commit to believing that one thing is more important than everything else. Forget about satisfying expectations. Forget about convention.

I started
...Show more

Step one and two are easy. Step three. There-in lies the rub . Step four. I guess I need to hire a marketing company.




Mar 24, 2011 at 02:40 PM
jcolman
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p.6 #20 · Giving Discounts


monoatomic72 wrote:
I think one big thing people forget is that we see the world through our own perspective and it's very hard not to project our own ideals onto someone's situation. The mindset that because I can't do this or that, someone else in the same position can't. Or the reverse, if I can do this or I know how to do that, so should everyone else.


Bingo!






Mar 24, 2011 at 02:45 PM
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