sboerup wrote:
Will shooting weddings referred by other photographers in big cities help you make more money and book more weddings in your own market?
Sometimes it's not about "making money". Sometimes you do something just because you want to do it.
sboerup wrote:
Will shooting weddings referred by other photographers in big cities help you make more money and book more weddings in your own market?
I suspect (hope) that Mark wrote that tongue in cheek... as Chuck's point was totally on the money.
jcolman wrote:
That is not the average price that brides spend on wedding photography. It's more like $2300. Look it up.
I could not be any less interested/influenced by this alleged average, and neither should any of you.
Guess I know what I'm blogging about tomorrow...
jcolman wrote:
But I digress. Would you give up $600 if it meant booking a wedding? How about $300? $100? $50? The point is every single one of us has our price where we can be bought.
$50-600 is an irrelevant sum of money in my business. Because of the steps I have taken my clients understand this. I would never contend that my work is for sale, it is only for sale. Having said that, if what is important to a client is $500 less than what I have quoted then the problem is most definitely with me and not them and not the actual price.
Jed, you sound frustrated, and I'm not singling you out to pick on you. I'm speaking more general to ALL photographers out there who are working towards being "established". I hear the frustration that SO MANY photographers have, trying to get their voices heard over the roar of all the other photographers grasping at the brides, trying to fill their calendars and hope that more work means more success...
But in truth, competition should be the last thing you worry about. You can't shoot every wedding, so why worry about that part?
Make the people want YOU. HOW you do this is your own recipe, because if someone else thought of it, they are designing it for THEM.
To paraphrase (loosely) the often-controversial Jasmine Star...People don't book her to shoot their wedding...they book JASMINE STAR to shoot their wedding. She created a brand, identified her clientele, and made them want HER, accept no substitute! This means that even in google, they're not googling "Local wedding Photographer", they're googling YOUR NAME.
Sales means you tell a customer WHY they need to buy a product...and in this game, YOU are the product.
And are you telling me that the only avenues to reach brides are bridal magazines and google? What if your identified clientele aren't reading those bridal magazines? You don't know if they are? Then you need to look harder at understanding who your clientele are! And once you do, don't be afraid to get a little creative! Make yourself stand out, and make yourself stand ABOVE the others. I know a lot of CRAPPY photographers who are way busier than many GREAT photographers...because they are selling themselves to the right people.
People don't want to look at the crowd that all looks alike and blindly select...they want someone to make that choice for them. MAKE IT AN EASY CHOICE.
dcphoto, you are right about a lot of things. In fact 60% of the hits on my site are people googling my name, because I was referred to them, or because they heard that I do a fantastic job.
I'm not frustrated at Tony or any of the big dawgs. Some of these are amazing photogs that deserve all the credit, and should be making lots. I'm mostly frustrated at what you mentioned here,
I know a lot of CRAPPY photographers who are way busier than many GREAT photographers..
This really boils my blood, because you can see that they don't put in as much effort in their work as you do, yet they have more business than you because they have better marketing.
I stopped discounting a while ago because I realized that the more discount you give, the less the client respects you. In the same breath, I want to say that I do understand those who feel the need to give discounts in order to compete and stay afloat.
Jed Eltom wrote:
dcphoto, you are right about a lot of things. In fact 60% of the hits on my site are people googling my name, because I was referred to them, or because they heard that I do a fantastic job.
I'm not frustrated at Tony or any of the big dawgs. Some of these are amazing photogs that deserve all the credit, and should be making lots. I'm mostly frustrated at what you mentioned here,
This really boils my blood, because you can see that they don't put in as much effort in their work as you do, yet they have more business than you because they have better marketing.
I stopped discounting a while ago because I realized that the more discount you give, the less the client respects you. In the same breath, I want to say that I do understand those who feel the need to give discounts in order to compete and stay afloat....Show more →
Just took a look at your website and have some general comments.
It may seem like I'm really busting on Jed, but I'm really not. I just feel the need to help people understand how their perception limits their business potential.
Jed Eltom wrote:
I"m not frustrated at Tony or any of the big dawgs. Some of these are amazing photogs that deserve all the credit, and should be making lots. I'm mostly frustrated at what you mentioned here,
This really boils my blood, because you can see that they don't put in as much effort in their work as you do, yet they have more business than you because they have better marketing.
Why does this anger people? Well, I think I know why, I think its sour grapes and jealousy. It is really not helpful to look at the other guy and say, "oh sure he gets business, he MARKETS his work" and turn your nose up at the thought. Sorry, making the photographs is only a fraction of being a pro. Making the photographs something that another person might actually want to own is a bigger part of the professional game. That's what makes the pro a pro. And its really silly to denounce the other photographer's work because evidently actual, paying clients are very thrilled to own it. If you can't say the exact same thing about your own work then maybe the other guy's priorities are more in line with his perfect clients than yours?
I think it takes a ton more effort and hard work to make a business run efficiently than it does to become a good photographer. That isn't to say that I don't respect the craft of photography (I do, very much) its to accentuate how difficult the act of running a profitable business is. Don't run down the guy who creates work that you don't like but is making a solid living - he is in the trenches taking fire.
Its easy to look at another photographer and dissect all the ways they suck (I, in fairness, do this too). But it doesn't let us off the hook for doing the work that the other guy is doing. I have yet to meet a photographer who's work speaks for itself and sells without any form of marketing. Marketing is not a dirty word, we all do it all the time.
its actually not hard to turn a profit, TRR, and i think you should change your verbiage to be more encouraging. its hard to get the things in place to turn a profit. as long as you keep saying how difficult it is, no one is gonna see how easy it really is to up the pricing (as long as the quality of the work is there). i think you're trying to help but making the task seem more daunting than it really is. i don't have a business degree but i certainly pull a nice profit - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to make sure numbers end up higher than zero.
CHARGE MORE THAN YOU SPEND AND YOU WILL MAKE MONEY. This ends up being about 3500 minimum per wedding.
mastering the art of photography is infinitely harder and more time consuming than running a profitable business, because it's a lifelong process. anyone who can't acknowledge that isn't a photographer (if you've never had the urge to shoot photos unless there is payment involved, this probably doesn't make much sense to you). there are tried and true ways to make money, but not to make great art.
Sergio Mottola wrote:
its actually not hard to turn a profit, TRR, and i think you should change your verbiage to be more encouraging. its hard to get the things in place to turn a profit. as long as you keep saying how difficult it is, no one is gonna see how easy it really is to up the pricing (as long as the quality of the work is there). i think you're trying to help but making the task seem more daunting than it really is. i don't have a business degree but i certainly pull a nice profit - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to make sure numbers end up higher than zero. ...Show more →
I don't think its hard empirically either. I think it must be difficult relatively given the percentage of self-identified pros who aren't profitable. I think its relatively easy as well to raise prices and charge enough, and if I haven't communicated that then that's my bad. Its perhaps deceptively simple. I've worked with a number of $1500-2500 photographers that became $4-8K photographers literally overnight. Its not difficult, the choice and accepting the risk/responsibility is what seem to give people pause.
Sergio Mottola wrote:
CHARGE MORE THAN YOU SPEND AND YOU WILL MAKE MONEY. This ends up being about 3500 minimum per wedding.
Agreed, with a caveat. First, you might make money but do you make enough? The problem seems to be that most people massively underestimate what they spend (or don't know how to track it) and sacrifice how they want/need to live in order to charge a lower/more-comfortable price. I'd prefer that people live mostly happily and charge what it takes to make that happen. So there are soft concerns to the hard numbers that folks often don't take into consideration.
Sergio Mottola wrote:
mastering the art of photography is infinitely harder and more time consuming than running a profitable business, because it's a lifelong process. anyone who can't acknowledge that isn't a photographer (if you've never had the urge to shoot photos unless there is payment involved, this probably doesn't make much sense to you). there are tried and trued ways to make money, but not to make great art.
I'm not talking about mastering photography, or a life-long pursuit. I'm not sure either of us are qualified to talk about that. I am talking about being a functioning professional, which is what I gather most people here are interested in. I'm not sure whether or not "great art" is the issue here. If it is I'm not interested (or qualified as you seem determined to point out) in talking about it.
I personally think TRR and Serg are right as well. I also think that they both are coming from different places "artistically". Neither better IMO or wrong just different ways of doing things.
I"m generally curious as to where all the money goes in some people's businesses. It seems to me, with some of the numbers that are thrown around, there is a serious issue of waste going on.
Just as a reference, not something in stone, but $3500 minimum for a wedding to be profitable? I don't even know how to wrap my head around that figure. Not that it's some unattainable goal or figure for me, it's simply just out of my realm of comprehension that a sizable percentage of profit can't be made out of less money than that.
I understand it's probably based on a package with albums/prints/images included, but I just can't see how on my base package, I start making a profit after about $700-900 (variances depending on length of wedding, travel, editing time etc) but others can't manage to start making a sizable profit until they hit the 3-4k mark? That to me, with working most of my life in some sort of managerial job that I was forced to comply towards a P&L driven business, just seems like something seriously is being miscalculated in your business plan.
I'm not advocating charging bottom of the barrel prices. That's not my intent or message at all. I'm more interested in ways to maximize profits as opposed to arbitrarily raising your prices to cover up poor business practices.
monoatomic72 wrote:
I"m generally curious as to where all the money goes in some people's businesses. It seems to me, with some of the numbers that are thrown around, there is a serious issue of waste going on.
Just as a reference, not something in stone, but $3500 minimum for a wedding to be profitable? I don't even know how to wrap my head around that figure. Not that it's some unattainable goal or figure for me, it's simply just out of my realm of comprehension that a sizable percentage of profit can't be made out of less money than that.
I understand it's probably based on a package with albums/prints/images included, but I just can't see how on my base package, I start making a profit after about $700-900 (variances depending on length of wedding, travel, editing time etc) but others can't manage to start making a sizable profit until they hit the 3-4k mark? That to me, with working most of my life in some sort of managerial job that I was forced to comply towards a P&L driven business, just seems like something seriously is being miscalculated in your business plan.
I'm not advocating charging bottom of the barrel prices. That's not my intent or message at all. I'm more interested in ways to maximize profits as opposed to arbitrarily raising your prices to cover up poor business practices....Show more →
Do you have an office or a studio? Do you pay for advertising/marketing? Do you purchase office supplies, printing supplies, office equipment, memory cards, cameras? Do you pay for any continuing education? Do you attend workshops? Do you buy thank you gifts? Do you feed your clients?
If you answered yes to any of those, here's a follow up question... what quality of those things are you buying? Sure, you can buy cheap stuff that will "get you by" but how does that make you look in front of your clients?
Something of a no-brainer - memory cards. I happen to purchase Sandisk Extreme Pro cards. 32GB each at about $300 a pop. They give me the performance that I need. Are you buying the Kingstons for $100 and dealing with memory buffer issues and slow transfer speeds?
I recently bout the Neat Desk scanner to scan receipts and contracts to go to integrate with Quickbooks, which I also bought. Do you invest in things that will make your business run more smoothly and efficiently? My time is money.
TRReichman wrote:
I'm not talking about mastering photography, or a life-long pursuit. I'm not sure either of us are qualified to talk about that. I am talking about being a functioning professional, which is what I gather most people here are interested in. I'm not sure whether or not "great art" is the issue here. If it is I'm not interested (or qualified as you seem determined to point out) in talking about it.
- trr
that's what i mean, brothaman. you're not qualified BECAUSE you're not interested
but yes, i agree, all of this can be an overnight change.
monoatomic72 wrote:
I"m generally curious as to where all the money goes in some people's businesses. It seems to me, with some of the numbers that are thrown around, there is a serious issue of waste going on.
Just as a reference, not something in stone, but $3500 minimum for a wedding to be profitable? I don't even know how to wrap my head around that figure. Not that it's some unattainable goal or figure for me, it's simply just out of my realm of comprehension that a sizable percentage of profit can't be made out of less money than that.
I understand it's probably based on a package with albums/prints/images included, but I just can't see how on my base package, I start making a profit after about $700-900 (variances depending on length of wedding, travel, editing time etc) but others can't manage to start making a sizable profit until they hit the 3-4k mark? That to me, with working most of my life in some sort of managerial job that I was forced to comply towards a P&L driven business, just seems like something seriously is being miscalculated in your business plan.
I'm not advocating charging bottom of the barrel prices. That's not my intent or message at all. I'm more interested in ways to maximize profits as opposed to arbitrarily raising your prices to cover up poor business practices....Show more →
I'd encourage you to check your numbers with a real, qualified accountant. Perhaps you will prove all of us wrong!
But here is a question for you if we are wrong: Why do almost all of the photographers who charge less than that value seem to have a day job or a spouse with one? Why don't you see most of the photographers charging $3500 and up driving BMW's and Mercs if their revenue is so much in excess of expenses?
If you have a non-photographic primary revenue stream and can blur the lines between personal (hobby) expenses and business expenses, it is much easier to convince yourself that you are making much more money than you actually are.
monoatomic72 wrote:
I"m generally curious as to where all the money goes in some people's businesses. It seems to me, with some of the numbers that are thrown around, there is a serious issue of waste going on.
Just as a reference, not something in stone, but $3500 minimum for a wedding to be profitable? I don't even know how to wrap my head around that figure. Not that it's some unattainable goal or figure for me, it's simply just out of my realm of comprehension that a sizable percentage of profit can't be made out of less money than that.
I understand it's probably based on a package with albums/prints/images included, but I just can't see how on my base package, I start making a profit after about $700-900 (variances depending on length of wedding, travel, editing time etc) but others can't manage to start making a sizable profit until they hit the 3-4k mark? That to me, with working most of my life in some sort of managerial job that I was forced to comply towards a P&L driven business, just seems like something seriously is being miscalculated in your business plan.
I'm not advocating charging bottom of the barrel prices. That's not my intent or message at all. I'm more interested in ways to maximize profits as opposed to arbitrarily raising your prices to cover up poor business practices....Show more →
The big difference here is managerial accounting. Per-job profitability is not the way to look at it. When looking at that you are only looking at your cost-of-good-sold and not your general expenses.
It also depends on the life that the business is supposed to be supporting. As far as I know a guy like Sergio is young and single, and his expenses are less than mine. And people who have kids or debt or other responsibilities will need more. So if Sergio can do it at $3500 that's great. My number is over $5000 per wedding (and I have razor thin expenses and a very efficient business). I don't live extravagantly either. The PPA Benchmark calculated the average gross for a pofitable weddings-only studio to be about $5000 per wedding. Now, averages being what they are there is going to be a lot of flex, but if you think $3500 to hit profitability is high I think you might want to do some work on your managerial accounting practices and recalculate. I couldn't live on $3500/wedding.
