and all you peeps are pointing your finger and going "that's not how you do it! You're supposed to stand up and walk!"
Either grab the baby's fingers (he reads PMs as well as emails sent to: alessandro at disciascio dot com ) and help him up... or sit back, make funny faces and enjoy watching him scuttle around... eventually he too will probably stand up and walk (or so I hope) ... in the meantime... hopefully crawling is BETTER than just sitting up.
Sergio Mottola wrote:
what i mean by that is you should focus your time and money (especially money if youre paying that much for seo) on reaching brides, not letting brides reach you (that's all google is).
Wise words, but besides advertising in bridal magazines and using a referral network, I can't think of anything else.
I'm all ears. I'm not in your area, and would love to get some advice from you.
Jed Eltom wrote:
If Ghionis is booked, the bride will type "Melbourne Wedding Photography" in Google, and go for the next photog there that is available and within her budget. So now you are competing with non-famous photogs with large marketing budgets.
If I were number 2 under Jerry, and what they want is Jerry caliber at Jerry price, they are not going to look at me no matter where I am in the Google rankings. Jerry worrying about me as "competition" is like me worrying about a noob charging $1000.
Jed Eltom wrote:
Clients have to hear about you and come to you, before you can wow them with your sales tricks.
It has nothing to do with tricks...it has everything to do with believing that you are worth it and learning how to effectively communicate that fact to your perspective clients.
And trust me....I am not there yet. We have 25 weddings booked for this year, and I can promise you that our average contract this year is less than the starting price for many on here. We must be charging more, and pretty soon...we will be increasing our prices. Personally, I am still trying to figure out 1) what I believe I am worth and want to charge and 2) how to properly communicate that.
It's hard...brutally hard....for me to figure out how to proceed. But, I feel like we are getting there one step at a time.
juicer wrote:
What's the profitability cutoff to be considered a professional, in your opinion? Actually, the amount that someone charges per-event would have the greatest impact on the market. Certainly the part-timer doing 2 $4k weddings in a year and not even covering initial gear costs is better for the 'professional market' than the full-timer making a living off of 40 $2k weddings. It seems this is where the concern over discounting is coming from. In which case:
Profitability to me means that on a given basis (let's say yearly for argument's sake) your gross - your COGS - general expenses = a livable salary. I calculate profit the "right" way by taking every expense over the year into account, not just per job expenses.
juicer wrote:
Do you believe passionate amateurs who give their work away are hurting the profession less than those who charge enough to, more or less, break even?
Jed Eltom wrote:
If Ghionis is booked, the bride will type "Melbourne Wedding Photography" in Google, and go for the next photog there that is available and within her budget. So now you are competing with non-famous photogs with large marketing budgets.
Do you think they found Ghionis on an internet search? DO you think the internet search is the primary method of attracting clients? I haven't booked an internet search client in years.
and all you peeps are pointing your finger and going "that's not how you do it! You're supposed to stand up and walk!"
Either grab the baby's fingers (he reads PMs as well as emails sent to: alessandro at disciascio dot com ) and help him up... or sit back, make funny faces and enjoy watching him scuttle around... eventually he too will probably stand up and walk (or so I hope) ... in the meantime... hopefully crawling is BETTER than just sitting up. ...Show more →
Unfair analogy. That baby is developing as a matter of course. Your business will sit stagnate unless you make the decision to improve it. I don't like the baby analogy, it assumes that time is necessary in the process. You can make these changes overnight.
TRReichman wrote:
BTW, $5K for a wedding is not a rockstar number - its the average you should aim for.
- trr
That is not the average price that brides spend on wedding photography. It's more like $2300. Look it up.
But I digress. Would you give up $600 if it meant booking a wedding? How about $300? $100? $50? The point is every single one of us has our price where we can be bought.
Jim, TRR's number you should strive for is not some "national average" ... That number includes all the $500 craigslist brides and should not be your guide. 2300 is low even as a starting price if you want to be profitable.
Tony Hoffer wrote:
I'd love your thoughts/discussions on this...
First you need to define discount .. it can either be a short term pricing tactic used for any one of a number of valid reasons (aka we're having a sale) or a it can be a long term pricing & costing model (aka Wal-Mart). Both have been used successfully by many busineesses for many years.
But you probably don't mean either of these two .. you (I think) have tried to demonstrate costs and relate that to how much revenue you need to generate a profit as a photographer .. and if I'm right about that you should know that you really cannot control competitors pricing. In theory the market eventually will and if their discounted pricing is not sufficient to earn a profit then their business will fail .. yes? But the answer is often no .. it will continue happily along it's unprofitable path for a very long time supported by their full time jobs, girlfriends income, workshop income, and tax avoidance. I particularly like the workshop income option .. yakking about the business is often more profitable than the business itself.
TRReichman wrote:
Do you think they found Ghionis on an internet search? DO you think the internet search is the primary method of attracting clients? I haven't booked an internet search client in years.
- trr
So you and Ghionis can unplug your internet We hope.
wasnt there a thread not too far back where the bride in cali was looking for a $2K wedding photog and FMers were falling all over themselves to shoot the wedding (despite having to have to buy airfare and lodging)? and yet, they dont want to discount?
If there's one thing I've learned playing this game it's that you can never charge enough. Really. You don't need to be a rockstar. I'm very happy with the amount of money I took home last year and people barely know who I am.
canerino wrote:
wasnt there a thread not too far back where the bride in cali was looking for a $2K wedding photog and FMers were falling all over themselves to shoot the wedding (despite having to have to buy airfare and lodging)? and yet, they dont want to discount?
i get your point but this is a lead from the Sauce man ....
that is different than a cold lead off the street.
Plus in San Fransisco.... elevated streets...
Jed Eltom wrote:
In order to compete with famous photogs who have large marketing budgets, an average decent photog has to do one or more of the following:
- Offer his work at a lower price or offer discounts.
- Produce better work.
- Dump all his/her life savings in marketing.
- Pray for a miracle.
Most do the easiest of the above, and try to undercut the big guys in order to appeal to the low-medium budget brides, and make a buck.
Does this hurt the market? No. The rich will buy Louis Vuitton, the rest will buy what they can afford.
Does this hurt the craft? Surely.
Under cutting the big guys is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Not only will it rt the industry but it will shoot, kill and have a Sunday service for your oncencalled business. Thenonly way to compete with the big dawgs is to play like a big dawg. Price like them and offer what they can offer clients. If you can price like them and need to discount then your not a big dawg and need more work.
You got it all wrong bro..l don't fight it, don't be made because your not like Tony. I am far from Tony and i will admit he is better than me. But do I do as much work as him and make a good living like him? Yep sure do. Do I try and compete with him or be like him? Nope and neither should you.
Sure he inspires me and that is good to have people that inspire you. Bu if you want to even try and compete then you need to change your attitude and study what the big dawns offer and offer something different and better. Why be like the rest and then undercut? Your only killing your brand.
canerino wrote:
wasnt there a thread not too far back where the bride in cali was looking for a $2K wedding photog and FMers were falling all over themselves to shoot the wedding (despite having to have to buy airfare and lodging)? and yet, they dont want to discount?
I think this comes down to the opportunity cost. For some, the opportunity is greater than the slight reduction in profit. For example, we would love to have the opportunity to fly somewhere and enjoy a weekend or a full week in a different location. If the opportunity arises for us to make money and cover the cost of the trip, that is worthwhile to us. But it is not worth it for us to miss a weekend at home enjoying ourselves if we aren't making a profit on a wedding where we live.
I think the saying "go big or go home" applies very well here.
If you're going to be a professional photographer, you need to run your business like a professional. Deliver professional quality results 100% of the time, have the necessary equipment, etc. And you should be charging like a professional, not offering discounts left and right to get customers.
I am currently an amateur with a lot of passion and I wouldn't have the gall to charge for my work right now. I won't ever charge money for my work until I master the actual craft of photography and am able to consistently deliver professional results. Then comes the time to start using all of the branding ideas that I have bouncing around in my head and convincing customers that my professional results are worth an actual professional level cost. Even if I only ever due a wedding or two per year and a couple of portrait sessions as a side job, I won't be giving half-assed effort and results.
I have to agree with TRR, you either are a professional or an amateur. With sufficient, well-directed effort, an amateur can make the jump to a professional, and a professional can make themselves more compelling.
jprezant wrote:
The problem with this is word of mouth. Word gets out that you discount. Other
clients request discount. You deny. You get bad word of mouth.
Exactly. Also I would contend that it's not fair to give some people discounts just because they ask.
No discounts period.
I will make special changes to a collection or something if it is necessary but my services cost what they cost. And guess what, they will cost more in the future. And more. And more.
Just to be clear, I never said anything about "offering discounts left and right." I'm simply saying that I see no problem with giving a discount every now and then.
I gave a bride a rather large discount for a Cancun wedding. Why? She is paying to fly me and my wife there and put us up for a week, all expenses paid. Sure I gave her a discount. So would most of you.
I also gave a woman who's husband is in Afghanistan a discount. Why? Because they are renewing their vows when he comes home. I grew up an Army brat. My dad was a POW for three years and survived the Bataan Death march. I have a soft spot for military people. Call me a sucker. I don't give a shit. It made me feel good.
I would have no problem giving another photographer a discount on his wedding if he wants to edit the pics themselves. Saves me a lot of work. I'm in the people pleasing business.
I value my work. I value my time. But I'm not in this business because shooting wedding fulfills my inner artist. I'm in it because I enjoy it and I can make some money at the same time. But that's not to say that I don't enjoy creating something that has appeal. I like creating an artistic image. It's a lot of fun. Last night I won first place in a wedding portrait contest that was held in my city. I beat out 30+ other photographers with my wining shot. I had a blast doing the shoot. I did the shoot for fun. I wasn't paid. I did win the contest but the prize wasn't anything that I really need (two nights at a four star hotel) I did it because it was a challenge. Nobody paid me. In fact, I paid a fee to enter. Did I compromise my "art" by doing this? Isn't doing a shoot for a four star hotel for free (as they get the image for promotional purposes) worst than giving some thankful bride a discount on her wedding day? Hell no.
Anyway, at the end of the day we all do what we believe is right for us, not the guy on the other coast or down the street. Do what you think is best as you're the only one who has to live with your decision.
We hope.