Sergio Mottola wrote:
lmao ^^^ the only person who says passion is free is someone without passion. or an understanding of it.
It is really comforting to know that you'll be there to pass judgment and identify areas of misunderstanding when I need it. Sorry I made your ass fall off.
So, those of you who don't ever give any $$ discounts... do you ever "throw in" stuff? Whether it be extra time, an extra album spread, upgrade in print size... etc etc
This is exactly why I am no longer doing weddings. You can't get these prices that are required to stay viable. I'd rather have my Saturdays free and pursue my own projects than deal with cheap brides and end up losing money at the end of the day.
bthatton wrote:
So, those of you who don't ever give any $$ discounts... do you ever "throw in" stuff? Whether it be extra time, an extra album spread, upgrade in print size... etc etc
I'm just curious where the line is drawn here.
I'm starting to do this. I'll upgrade a guest book size, throw in some print credit,
stuff like. I think it really adds a nice touch, but none of this is discussed before booking, and they don't know it's coming.
Carl Feather wrote:
This is exactly why I am no longer doing weddings. You can't get these prices that are required to stay viable. I'd rather have my Saturdays free and pursue my own projects than deal with cheap brides and end up losing money at the end of the day.
That's not true at all. That just means that you weren't getting the right
clients / booking at a high enough price point.
jprezant wrote:
The problem with this is word of mouth. Word gets out that you discount. Other
clients request discount. You deny. You get bad word of mouth.
Completely agree that discounting is most likely a bad route form long term profitability. But, looking at Tony's original post it is solely around the financial impacts of performing a wedding at a discount, not the long term deleterious effects that discounting can have on your business. Every good business understands the revenue and expenses that contribute to their bottom line. We all mock Walmart, and while it isn't a great analogy for an artistic one person (or few person) endeavor, the understanding of their financials and revenue drivers (high volume/low cost) allows them to be massively successful.
As to the additional throw-ins, while from a marketing point these are very effective, from a financial perspective it’s entirely semantics.
You forgot the BIGGEST part! What lifestyle do you want to live? Also depends on where that $3000 falls in your pricing. If you is just your starting point, then who cares as most people who are looking at you and book you are getting an album plus more so they are spending upwards of $5k or more. If the $3000 is your high end of the price scale then your screwed if you discount.
Truthfully after all is said and done as long as we are charging a fair rate for our services and not doing something that is detrimental to the industry (free weddings, 500$ weddings) I don't think it really matters much. If BILLY BOB wants to normally charge 8000$ for a wedding but then feels inclined to give someone a 10-15% discount one time for whatever reason... What does it really matter to anyone but BILLY BOB.
Tony's write up and everyone's responses are great for people to hear and digest, especially newbies. But really what does it matter?
The moral of the story, as I see it, is what TRR touched on. We need to keep our industry and craft strong by not devaluing and or discounting our work to the point that it is not worth the money we are wanting to charge and NEED to charge to do it full time and stay in business.
If your profit margins are, lets' say, 50%, so you net $50 for every $100 of income, and you discount 30% off your price, then you've narrowed your profit margin from 50% to 20%, making $20 instead of that $50. It's an invisible killer, like high blood pressure. And it becomes a spiral downward once you start that.
When you build a building, you don't say let me just grab whatever for the foundation because I need a foundation. That foundation is what supports every floor you'll build on top of it.
jcolman wrote:
But we would often discount our prices during slow months or for trusted clients that needed a break on a project... Discounting our rates was a business tool that we used when and where necessary... This is the lesson I learned and this is why I will offer a discount at times.
You're making a casual connection there I think because obviously they were in a better position than a one man business to make it. Maybe they funneled money into the business as the years went by. Maybe the bosses had other reserves to live off of in bad times. Or maybe it was lucky that they charged high enough all the other times to offset the discounts. And maybe their business model was capable of scaling up. Maybe all that and even more... But that's like thinking because I gave to charity from time to time is the reason why I've been gainfully employed all these years.
Your previous outfit could've given value and perks and exclusive options to their preferred clients - instead of discounts. Better for good will and better for the bottom line. Instead they knee jerked to the worst thing they could do.
You're an entirely different business model. You're only charging a couple of thousand for a limited small number of weddings you can possibly shoot in one year as one person - and you're gonna discount some of them even less?
Tell ya what... copy WalMart's discount. I hear they make billions of dollars! Betcha that's way more than your past employer. So just copy how they discount too and apply it to your business.
qwyjibo wrote:
As to the additional throw-ins, while from a marketing point these are very effective, from a financial perspective it’s entirely semantics.
Strongly disagree on that point. Very Very strongly.
Say I price my package to provide $1,000 of after tax profit and that is sustainable to run my business and it's enough income to keep me interested.
A client wants to book but is hesitant to do so due to price, they are looking for "a good deal"... they're used to ALWAYS negotiating and never paying the asking price (that does happen in certain cultures).
Ok... so I can give them a $150 discount. or I can upgrade them to the next size album whcih lists for $300 more, for an extra $100.
If I give the discount I end up taking home something like $120 less... instead of $1,000 I now made $880 for the same work. I AM NOT HAPPY. And he got what he sees as a $150 deal
If i give them the deal on the upgrade, and let's say that the next size up album COSTS me $75 more... now instead of $880 I'm taking home maybe $1010... I work the same, I AM HAPPY. And he got what he sees as a $200 deal, PLUS when his wife shows the bigger album it looks more impressive to their friends, it's better "advertising" for me, if you will.
So yeah... NOT semantics at all.
That's not to say that I jump all over myself trying to give away free or cheap upgrades, but if push comes to shove there is a HUGE difference between the two, both in the financial impact on you and the preception.
The perception can be VERY signficant.
If I give a $150 discount I'm saying that SOMETHING that they're getting is worth LESS than I offered it to them for. The something could be the album, but it could ALSO be MY WORK.
Now on the other hand if they ask for a discount and I say "look, I'd love to help you out, however in order to produce the level of work you expect I just can't cut corners and reduce my fee... however, I do want to work with you and I think I might be able to upgrade your album for a fraction of the upgrade price... here... $100 more rather than the $300" ... now there what I've done is IF ANYTHING, discounted the value of a book... not of my work.
Sure... ideally I'd prefer not to discount anything... but if I have to choose, I prefer to give the perception that a piece of leather and paper can be discounted but my art cannot.
TRReichman wrote:
It is really comforting to know that you'll be there to pass judgment and identify areas of misunderstanding when I need it. Sorry I made your ass fall off.
-If you are a rockstar photographer and can spend $1000/month on SEO and another $1000/month on marketing, and you appear on the first page of google, then you can afford to charge $5000/per wedding and refuse to give any discounts. Simply put, if 10,000 people/year look at your website, you are guaranteed to book at least 50 of them, because they can afford it for the price that you want.
-If you are a decent photographer on page 50 of google, and you get only about 300 hits/year on your site, then you simply can't charge $3000+/per wedding. You also have to accommodate some discounts here and there, otherwise you won't book a single wedding.
Hence why Apple Computers can charge $3000 for PC, but Joe Shmo Custom Computers can't, because Joe Shmo knows that if he priced his similar spec'd PC's at $3000, he'd quickly be out of business.
So although it is really easy for rockstars to say that a photographer shouldn't discount or charge less than $3000/wedding, for those who are not rockstars, they really have no other choice.
-If you are a rockstar photographer and can spend $1000/month on SEO and another $1000/month on marketing, and you appear on the first page of google, then you can afford to charge $5000/per wedding and refuse to give any discounts. Simply put, if 10,000 people/year look at your website, you are guaranteed to book at least 50 of them, because they can afford it for the price that you want.
-If you are a decent photographer on page 50 of google, and you get only about 300 hits/year on your site, then you simply can't charge $3000+/per wedding. You also have to accommodate some discounts here and there, otherwise you won't be able to book a single wedding.
So although it is really easy for hoffer to say that a photographer shouldn't discount or charge less than $3000/wedding, for those who are not hoffers or boerups, they really have no other choice....Show more →
bthatton wrote:
So, those of you who don't ever give any $$ discounts... do you ever "throw in" stuff? Whether it be extra time, an extra album spread, upgrade in print size... etc etc
I'm just curious where the line is drawn here.
My opinion, as this happened to me when I first started out and at the end of the day I paid to shoot that wedding.
I would never just "throw in" stuff. I'll work things into a package, but I feel like if I say, "I'll throw that in too," they are going to start grinding me down on other things and then where does it stop? Then a demand is made, you say "sorry that's not included" and all of the sudden you're a bad guy for saying no.
Jed Eltom wrote:
-If you are a rockstar photographer and can spend $1000/month on SEO and another $1000/month on marketing, and you appear on the first page of google, then you can afford to charge $5000/per wedding and refuse to give any discounts. Simply put, if 10,000 people/year look at your website, you are guaranteed to book at least 50 of them, because they can afford it for the price that you want.
I am not a rockstar. No one knows who I am and I don't matter in this industry. I don't spend a nickel on advertising or SEO. I don't get anywhere near 10,000 hits a year on my site. I am nowhere near the first page of google. I start at over $5K and average much more than that. You are limiting yourself and setting unrealistic expectations about what successful people are doing to get there. BTW, $5K for a wedding is not a rockstar number - its the average you should aim for.
Jed Eltom wrote:
-If you are a decent photographer on page 50 of google, and you get only about 300 hits/year on your site, then you simply can't charge $3000+/per wedding. You also have to accommodate some discounts here and there, otherwise you won't be able to book a single wedding.
This description is far more apt for my situation. And I wouldn't photograph a wedding for 3K. You do NOT have to discount to book work. You do need to be valuable. You do need a brand (which is basically free to develop and communicate). You do need to know why someone would hire you.
You guys are copping out so quickly!!!!! Why is lowering the price the only method you see for getting a job? Its literally the WORST way for you to do it!
Jed Eltom wrote:
So although it is really easy for hoffer to say that a photographer shouldn't discount or charge less than $3000/wedding, for those who are not hoffers or boerups, they really have no other choice.
You know why its easy for Hoffer to say it - because he got off his ass and did it. Who are you going to believe - the guy who actually did it or the guy on the sidelines saying it doesn't work?
I'm not Hoffer either, and I do alright. If I had a 10th of what Hoffer has I'd be averaging 20K per wedding. So you need to quit worrying about what Hoffer has that you don't and make what you have worth more than Hoffer. And I'll tell you to charge at least $5K per wedding.
There is always a choice beyond discounting. There are always a hundred better choices than discounting.
-If you are a rockstar photographer and can spend $1000/month on SEO and another $1000/month on marketing, and you appear on the first page of google, then you can afford to charge $5000/per wedding and refuse to give any discounts. Simply put, if 10,000 people/year look at your website, you are guaranteed to book at least 50 of them, because they can afford it for the price that you want.
-If you are a decent photographer on page 50 of google, and you get only about 300 hits/year on your site, then you simply can't charge $3000+/per wedding. You also have to accommodate some discounts here and there, otherwise you won't book a single wedding.
Hence why Apple Computers can charge $3000 for PC, but Joe Shmo Custom Computers can't, because Joe Shmo knows that if he priced his similar spec'd PC's at $3000, he'd quickly be out of business.
So although it is really easy for rockstars to say that a photographer shouldn't discount or charge less than $3000/wedding, for those who are not rockstars, they really have no other choice. ...Show more →
That's a little bit not true though.
Because they DO have choices.
I'm no rockstar photographer, I'm nowhere near the ballpark Hoffer plays in, and yet I'm either on page one or page two of google in a very competitive market. Some of it is work I'm doing but a lot of it is that I'm paying someone to do that work for me. It's not cheap and I'm well aware that others are doing it too creating a bit of a prisoner's dilemma if you will... but I used to be on page 18 and now on a good day I'm on page 1.
I happen to have a well paying job that allows me (thankfully) to invest heavily in the business both in terms of marketing and gear. However if I weren't in that situation, instead of L glass I'd be rocking Sigma and instead of 5D2s or 1 Series I'd be rocking 5D Classics... so that I Could still pay to get my ass on page 1.
Because all the L glass in the world is NEVER going to get you clients. At the size that clients see the work you coudl be shooting with kit lenses and they wouldn't know any different... nor is the 5D2 going to get you weddings.... but since getting to page 1/2 I am seeing signficantly more traffic, significantly more inquiries and basically I'm having an opportunity to play "social engineering" by trying some outrageous replies to the inquiries in hopes of hooking a few fish that will pay waht I want to be paid.
