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which lens has the most 3D POP?

  
 
JohnDizzo15
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p.66 #1 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


fotografur wrote:
These look great. I always believed that you get a better image with a wide to normal lens for this kind of stuff. Telephoto flattens the subject too much.

Thank you! Definitely agree, as I most regularly see it between 20-50mm. Telephoto definitely isolates, but it isn't necessarily the dimensionality we are referring to most of the time.
---------------------------------------------

Desmolicious wrote:
Definitely pops!



Came across another one that I see it in with the Sigma 35.
Sigma 35/1.2 by John Dizzo, on Flickr



May 27, 2025 at 10:30 PM
RustyBug
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p.66 #2 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


A couple from today that are not reliant on being shot wide open, nor close subject distance, nor lots of space between fg / subj / bg relationships. Lighting was dead flat, overcast, also ... so, not much help there either. Nothing as overt as some others, but I still like the way they render the transitions as part of the physiological cues ... even without all those other factors in play. Others will dissent.












May 27, 2025 at 10:54 PM
wind30
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p.66 #3 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


JohnDizzo15 wrote:
Thanks for sharing.

Are there particular shots in the gallery you believe to exhibit the effect?


I guess any of them that has a blur background… I pixel peep sometimes too as I have to justify new gear purchase but at the end of the day, I remind myself constantly of why I take photos and what makes a keeper.

I almost always have a 35mm prime so I guess of of those shots fit the 3d pop style I guess.



May 27, 2025 at 11:45 PM
RustyBug
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p.66 #4 · which lens has the most 3D POP?










May 28, 2025 at 08:42 PM
RustyBug
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p.66 #5 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


I was reading a different thread, and found this interesting, in the context of lens design approach diff's from an independent (of this thread) member. For those who are legitimately interested / intrigued by lens influence, it might offer a data point of interest.


u83364 wrote:
I found official MTF charts for both the Voigtlander 50mm f/3.5 APO-Lanthar and the Zeiss ZM Planar 50mm f/2, and I think I've answered my own question. I can't upload the charts since I don't have that membership level in the forum, but they are easily found on the Cosina website and by searching for the Zeiss datasheet. Zeiss provides MTF at f/2 and f/4, Voigtlander at f/3.5 and f/5.6.

My summary, for which I invite feedback of course: my reading of the MTF charts is that the Voigtlander's performance is a bit superior overall at equal apertures, with especially less
...Show more


The comment about the MTF "plunging abruptly" for the Zeiss (i.e. rate of transition) at the 15mm point (Zone transition), yielding more pop than the (inferred) slower, less abrupt transitions of the Voigtlander. The Voigtlander designed more toward retaining distribution across the frame vs. the Zeiss concentrating efforts into the 2/3 area.

This is very much inline with my experience with the Oly vs. Nikon AIS vs. C/Y from years back. The Oly design approached broad performance across the frame (Oly also noted for such in the great 28mm shootout, leading to its being heralded as the winner, among a variety of 28's.) The Nikon relented the corners for mid-frame performance. The C/Y split the difference. The area where such lenses make those abrupt changes ... placement of the subject relative to those transitions ... can be harnessed to yield the physiological cues involved with rate of transition. Of course, the lens A) must be designed with such "abrupt plunge" ... and B) the photographer must understand where that "plunge" exists (frame location, subject distance, aperture of occurrence), if it is to be maximized as contributing to the physiological cues, associated with rate of change / transitions.

Imo, there are design choices made that influence the projected image. The MTF's of a pair of good performing lenses (noted in the mentioned Zeiss / Voigtlander comparison) reveal a difference in approach, by intent of the lens designer.



May 30, 2025 at 04:43 AM
Jonas B
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p.66 #6 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


RustyBug wrote:
I was reading a different thread, and found this interesting, in the context of lens design approach diff's from an independent (of this thread) member. For those who are legitimately interested / intrigued by lens influence, it might offer a data point of interest.


The comment about the MTF "plunging abruptly" for the Zeiss (i.e. rate of transition) at the 15mm point (Zone transition), yielding more pop than the (inferred) slower, less abrupt transitions of the Voigtlander. The Voigtlander designed more toward retaining distribution across the frame vs. the Zeiss concentrating efforts into the 2/3 area.
[...]
Imo, there are design choices
...Show more

I'm interested. But is it a data point?
I have owned the ZM 50/2 but don't recall the images look like that. So I went checking the MTF for the lens and it looks like this:





Yes, something happens between 15-18mm but i wouldn't say the curves are "plunging abruptly".
I don't know.... maybe the poster u83364 saw what he/she wanted to see? Or rushed to some opinion prematurely (should have checked first)?




May 30, 2025 at 09:10 AM
Jonas B
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p.66 #7 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


gdanmitchell wrote:
That’s a fair question.

The problem is that there is no good term that encompasses all the things that are reflected by photographers who use that term “pop.” A secondary problem is that a small subset of photographers — well represented in this thread… ;-) — think that it is a thing that comes from using specific lenses.


The closest I’ve seen is the term “dimensionality,” though please don’t assert that this is a lens attribute.
[...]


Thank you for getting back on this.
I see the problems. It's unfortunate, it would have been nice if we all could have used the same word(s) discussing lenses.



May 30, 2025 at 09:14 AM
RustyBug
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p.66 #8 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Jonas B wrote:
I'm interested. But is it a data point?
I have owned the ZM 50/2 but don't recall the images look like that. So I went checking the MTF for the lens and it looks like this:
https://photos.imageevent.com/jonas_b/fotoforum2022andfw/Zeiss%20ZM%2050mm%20f2%20MTF.jpg
Yes, something happens between 15-18mm but i wouldn't say the curves are "plunging abruptly".
I don't know.... maybe the poster u83364 saw what he/she wanted to see? Or rushed to some opinion prematurely (should have checked first)?



Thanks for pulling these up.

f/4 does look quite a bit more abrupt than f/2. Given those mtf's I'd be inclined to shoot more at f/4 for a rapid transition change, than f/2 ... even if f/2 would present a more OOF BG, if I was wanting to render as we've been discussing. At least, I'd do some image testing to see how much the lens actually performs at diff apertures, etc. ... i.e. dual personality kind of thing, might be in play.



May 30, 2025 at 08:25 PM
Jonas B
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p.66 #9 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


RustyBug wrote:
Thanks for pulling these up.
f/4 does look quite a bit more abrupt than f/2. Given those mtf's I'd be inclined to shoot more at f/4 for a rapid transition change, than f/2 ... [...]


Maybe, but when looking at the graph and the abrupt events we can see that they take place at approximately 17.5mm. Then we should remember the end of the image at the left and right are at 18mm. So, OK, the corners don't get sharp but blurred corners only will not contribute much to the dimensionality/pop/3D pop we have discussed.

Hence my comment about the other guy's conclusion.



May 31, 2025 at 03:54 AM
taildraggin
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p.66 #10 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


From the first page of this thread in 2011 comes the ultimate answer:

JohnJ wrote:
KIRON 28/2 at F2

It has such poor edge resolution wide open that a subject in the central area, which is quite sharp, stands out like dogs balls!

JJ





May 31, 2025 at 06:50 AM
 


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RustyBug
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p.66 #11 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Jonas B wrote:
Maybe, but when looking at the graph and the abrupt events we can see that they take place at approximately 17.5mm. Then we should remember the end of the image at the left and right are at 18mm. So, OK, the corners don't get sharp but blurred corners only will not contribute much to the dimensionality/pop/3D pop we have discussed.

Hence my comment about the other guy's conclusion.


Gotcha.

18mm = edge. Central 2/3 would be more like 12-15mm.



May 31, 2025 at 07:13 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.66 #12 · which lens has the most 3D POP?









Jun 01, 2025 at 10:51 AM
Ripolini
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p.66 #13 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Ripolini wrote:
Besides lighting effects (i.e., Caravaggio), the 3D effect is given - under the same illumination - by how gradually the transition between the plane in focus and planes ahead and behind said plane occurs. My Zeiss 100/2 Makro-Planar is a perfect example of how pleasant the transition is even at f/11. Few optics succeed in this.


An example of gentle transition between the focus plane and planes behind it that creates - IMHO - the 3D pop:



Burnt-tip orchid (Neotinea ustulata) - NIKON Z6 w/Zeiss ZF 100/2 Makro-Planar



Jun 06, 2025 at 10:31 AM
jamato8
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p.66 #14 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Leica 90mm F2, Canon F2 200mm and the 135 F2 Cannon.




Jun 06, 2025 at 10:36 AM
philip_pj
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p.66 #15 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Fast lenses are up against it, due to their market-induced emphasis on big bokeh - and high levels of separation. For most of them, the makers know the aperture ring is virtually a vestigial fitting, and they know the average Joe wants rapid fade off the focal plane, and they generally mess that up too, because they aim mostly for rear-of-the-plane bokeh. They know these lenses are intended for event work. If they are well known for big bokeh, the task is even harder.

One key imaging need is depth integrity - the lens must keep faith with what we expect to see at varying distances. The definition of image motifs in image space must fade in a linear fashion with increases in distance.

If this sounds like this fundamental need should degrade with big bokeh lenses, it indeed does. They follow the well worn path of hyper definition of the subject on the very thin focal plane, with often supernatural levels of blur bringing up the rear. Irrespective of distance. It's not a fail, it is the paradigm they adhere to. They intend it.

How do you see image depth? You often don't, because too often, not much depth is left that can be seen at all. What can be seen conveys little definition,. by design. A lot of people like this look, most have bought in to it, and (egad) their shooting style reflects this loss of depth. Their images generally feature a nearby subject with a background that they permit to be engulfed in blur.

Because of this generally accepted form of photography, fast fade lenses (rapid loss of definition off the focal plane) create what we should see as an 'induced aberration' - the loss of linearity in image depth. Sometimes even those who enjoy high depth images need to use this separation method, for composition reasons. But wouldn't you want something to remain in that sea of blur when you have the choice?

It can help see things better if you deconstruct images. In John's image above (from Sigma, a long term major offender in 3D crimes), see the join in the concrete left of the sign? See how its definition (or lack of it) appears much the same with increasing distance? In fact, even something as large as the right side wall, bricks and roof line, are poorly differentiated with distance.

That's the dominant form of wide aperture lenses these days. And it is leading photographers into producing masses of images that have no sense of depth in near wide open apertures.

Back from the dead, Zeiss are now imbued with this forced perception of '3D', with their ML series. They tell you this right up front (asters are mine):

'The ZEISS Otus ML series is characterized by an *extraordinary shallow depth of field* that directs the viewer's gaze *precisely to what matters*... The wonderfully harmonious bokeh...creates *smooth transitions*, elegantly showcasing the stories' subjects.'

So, transitions are short, but smooth. And they have reduced the image to just the subject that resides on the focal plane. The rest of the image, maybe 75% of it, is not 'what matters'.

They then trade off what their own designers did so well last century and the early part of this one:

'Experience the unmistakable visual language of the ZEISS Otus ML lenses. Thanks to impressive *true color rendition, outstanding sharpness, and incomparable micro contrast*, a picture look is created that appears almost three-dimensional - the characteristic ZEISS 3D Pop.'

https://www.zeiss.com/consumer-products/int/photography/otus-ml/otus-ml-1450.html

Except that these features apply only to 'what matters' - the focal plane material. To Zeiss, the rest is just filler, not important to the main message and just there to make up the frame content. Friends, that is not how our vision works. Close one eye, look at your hand held 50cm away and tell me if the background looks like any image on the Zeiss page linked above.



Jun 06, 2025 at 05:36 PM
philip_pj
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p.66 #16 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Images matter more than words. These two are lifted from footage in the Zeiss ML 50mm page. Chosen almost at random, by the way. Would you be happy with them? They didn't even level the horizon. That's the 3D king, for you.





courtesy of Zeiss







courtesy of Zeiss




Jun 06, 2025 at 05:42 PM
philip_pj
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p.66 #17 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Here are three recent images that show how 3D might be drawn. Unlike Zeiss, in image one I want viewers to see the pink flowers, the light pouring in from outside, and the cross above her head. In image two, I want to show the bric-a-brac in the alleyway, its colors and chaos.

In short, I want to show what was there in somewhat recognizable form because this material adds to the images' impact and interest. Image three would be less if you could not see the soft but well-defined background content, and the blue on his hair and right cheek. It's a loss of information if these contents were not there. You will notice none of these three have any leading lines or other compositional tricks to help instill 3D. And I am a portrait shooter.





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Jun 06, 2025 at 05:57 PM
philip_pj
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p.66 #18 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Now, two along-the-street images shot with a 75mm (f1.4 by the way) at/near wide open (I don't have EXIF). These are an acid test and with such lenses we don't expect much definition in the middle distance, where there is not much of interest in any case. But I include it here to show the very linear focus fade in the street paving. Even here, the lens's focus falls off very pleasantly into the distance. So, what is the rush to lose image content? Linear focus fade is not the only thing involved in 3D, not by a long shot, but it is important to it - a base level indicator.





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Jun 06, 2025 at 06:15 PM
dclark
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p.66 #19 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


I see this thread is up to 1318 posts and 269,746 views (1319 and 269,747 with my post). It's too much for me to go through.
If you guys manage to figure out "which lens has the most 3D POP?", will someone please send me a PM?

Thanks,
Dave



Jun 06, 2025 at 06:36 PM
chez
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p.66 #20 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


dclark wrote:
I see this thread is up to 1318 posts and 269,746 views (1319 and 269,747 with my post). It's too much for me to go through.
If you guys manage to figure out "which lens has the most 3D POP?", will someone please send me a PM?

Thanks,
Dave


Be prepared for over 100 PM’s as everyone that post images here thinks they have achieved ultimate 3d pop.



Jun 06, 2025 at 08:58 PM
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