ddavid wroteIf any product with 90% foreign parts can be screwed together here
So if the research, testing, assembly, boxing, shipping, salaries for laborers of a product are all much more expensive than the parts used to make it, that wouldn't make it "Made in the USA?"
Diavolo wrote:
So if the research, testing, assembly, boxing, shipping, salaries for laborers of a product are all much more expensive than the parts used to make it, that wouldn't make it "Made in the USA?"
The only part of the iPhone process that is Chinese is the assembly...yet it's marked "Made in China."
dmward wroteLet's get back to lighting discussions rather than trade law.
THIS thread is about labels on lighting products... there are others where you can discuss lighting.
Mike Mahoney wrote:
Why? Does it really matter where the components are manufactured?
The vendor (in this case Alien Bees) would have done due diligence on their suppliers and are comfortable enough with the quality to put their brand name on it. That's what you're buying, and that's the important thing.
And in such an increasingly complex and fluid global supply chain good luck to anyone wanting to nail down where anything REALLY comes from, in particular from some of the newer, less regulated, and quickly growing Asian economies.
So I ask you again ... why?
Would you not buy a product that had components sourced from a particular country?
Can you tell the difference between a Korean and a German nut & bolt?
Mike Mahoney wrote:
And to those vocal few choosing to do a component source audit on a battery pack also extend this same rigorous examination to their other purchases? I don't think so, simply because you don't have the time or capability to do it. Which really makes me wonder about their motivation in choosing this particular product to put under the microscope.
I had Canadian bacon for breakfast (bacon to you) and it checked out just fine. If you are referencing my post, you'll also recall where I wrote that such a disassembly, while making a point on the bigger picture might unfairly focus on PCB. Although it does sound like an interesting idea for a documentary...
RustyBug wrote:
Without all the above pieces presented (which I won't be providing this forum) it would seem impossible to satisfy those intent on gunslinging just because they still have bullets to spray around. In light of what has been provided and explained in good faith, continued assertions of subterfuge and general bashing of PCB are wreckless, irresponsible and wrong ... ethically, morally and in some regard even legally where they are done so with such continued blatant disdain & disregard for regard the law, were it not for limited-purpose public figure rulings which may afford additional lattitude for 'cheap shots'.
I am quite certain that those intent on 'gunslinging' just because they can will not be swayed by anything more. I surmise that even a favorable ruling from the Supreme Court would leave them with a sour taste in their mouth and subequent banter regarding the inappropriateness of its ruling would ensue. Such as it is, much of what has been provided hasn't been solely for swaying the gunslingers, but for those watching from the stands as well. I do hope that there has been some educational benefit beyond the typical entertainment value.
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There you go again, saying nothing. Your position is that nobody can know these things because they are unknowable without looking up the regulations or examining the product. Neither of which you have...
This is not a court of law so we are left discussing two things, is the Vagabond correctly labeled and on a broader level, are US labeling laws accurately representing the makeup of products. (using common sense interpretations of "Made in USA" and our common sense layman's understanding of the "spirit of the law". We aren't lawyers.)
Paul Buff on the 1st page pretty much solved the issue when he agreed that maybe the best solution was to do what Apple does and print "Designed in USA." Although he then muddied up things by implying that Apple and Elinchrom mislabeled their own products.
ddavid wrote:
are US labeling laws accurately representing the makeup of products. (using common sense interpretations of "Made in USA" and our common sense layman's understanding of the "spirit of the law". We aren't lawyers.)
IMHO, RustyBug's point which I agree with is that a lot of the US laws are far from "common sense". Laws are laws that judges and lawyers get to interpret and hand down rulings and precedences.
I'll give you another contentious topic for example...the "assault weapons ban". On the surface, it looked like a good idea if you were a layman because it bans military rifles which fire multiple shots w/ one pull. If you dig deeper, it was just a feel good law that banned "evil looking rifles" that fired one shot w/ one pull, because the military definition of an AW includes selective fire and nothing banned would have qualified. This is how politicians work and I'm fairly certain they don't bother reading everything before voting on it (e.g., the 800 page "universal healthcare" law, or the bailout, or the patriot act, etc.). Someone with an agenda writes up a convoluted gazillion page "law" that affects multiple things unrelated to it, and the politicians vote for it based on the name and a few provisions they like...citizens push for something because it has a good title and a few provisions they like. It ends up a giant mess and then people figure out what's in it when it passes and you have what you live in today
kenyee wrote:
IMHO, RustyBug's point which I agree with is that a lot of the US laws are far from "common sense". Laws are laws that judges and lawyers get to interpret and hand down rulings and precedences.
If that's his point, then I agree with it, however he seems to be quite certain of PCB's compliance with the regulations, without ever seeing or owning one.
It's kind of like saying you know for a FACT that a food is Kosher simply because it's labeled as such. Without inspection by a Rabbi, companies can print whatever they want on a package to help sell it. Me sitting at my computer 100 miles away thumbing through the Tora is not going to prove whether it is or is not Kosher. Just sayin'.
kenyee wrote:
I'll give you another contentious topic for example...the "assault weapons ban".
Yup, that's a purely political law. The name is meaningless except to make it harder to vote against. The entire point of the law is to inch closer to overturning the 2nd Amendment. Nothing is what they say it is. There are a couple of laws that are used in this manner, by both the right and left.
I hope the trade laws don't become as politically divisive as these laws. Maybe we need better labeling, maybe like nutrition labels on cereal with %daily allowance type thing?
If that's his point, then I agree with it, however he seems to be quite certain of PCB's compliance with the regulations, without ever seeing or owning one.
I don't think I've seen Rustybug make that assertion, and of course that idea works in both directions.
However, inasmuch as Buff makes a significant effort to point out his product as "Made in the USA" both on the product and in his advertising, it's probably a good bet that he's made sure to keep within the limits of the law. People who are knowingly skirting laws that can shut them down rarely advertise it.
If this were an across the board discussion of all products and manufacturers (which doesn't really belong on the lighting techniques forum in the first place) I would have no issue with it. But that's not the case.
Vagabond Mini Lithium contains four elemental components: The carry bag (labeled Made in China), the battery (labeled Made in China), the charger (labeled Made In China) and the base unit containing inverter, control board, wiring, jacks, etc, which by consensus opinion of the pertinent regulations, is legitimately labeled Made In USA. This whole thread is the result of a poster merely looking at a picture of the front panel of one of these four components, and a lot of assumptions by a few armchair lawyers. There are no advertising claims regarding country of origin of the various components . . . only a photo of one of the four components.
Contrast this to a previous post where I pointed out to predominant advertising claims on the part of a Swiss competitor who has recently changed their website banner from "Elinchrom products are Made In Switzerland" To the current "Designed and shipped from our manufacturing facilities overlooking Lake Geneva" (Switzerland).
From where I stand, this advertising statement is cleverly written to lead the reader to believe the product is actually manufactured in Switzerland when, in fact the product, to my knowledge, is 100% manufactured, assembled, packaged and tested in India. The user is made aware of that only after they buy the product.
So what I see here is between a product for which no advertising claims are made regarding origin and which is labeled properly according to consensus interpretation of the regulations, and another product which is also correctly labeled as Made in India . . . language that does not appear anywhere in the advertising, but whose advertising implies it is manufactured in Switzerland.
So which is preferred . . . clear and compliant labeling with advertising that is limited to thoroughly defining the product and it's performance, or advertising with little definition of the product itself, but cleverly written to imply a different country of origin than is actually the case?
My first suggestion is that this issue does not belong on a Lighting Techniques forum in the first place, and my second suggestion is that, if the moderator refuses to accept this, that the discussion be broadened to include the entire industry rather than being limited to slamming, libeling and attempting to defame a particular manufacturer on the part of a tiny but persistent group of activists who have a clear bias against that particular manufacturer, while giving all others a pass, then falsely accusing this poster of having a bias against competitors.
Paul Buff wrote:
Contrast this to a previous post where I pointed out to predominant advertising claims on the part of a Swiss competitor who has recently changed their website banner from "Elinchrom products are Made In Switzerland" To the current "Designed and shipped from our manufacturing facilities overlooking Lake Geneva" (Switzerland).
From where I stand, this advertising statement is cleverly written to lead the reader to believe the product is actually manufactured in Switzerland when, in fact the product, to my knowledge, is 100% manufactured, assembled, packaged and tested in India. The user is made aware of that only after they buy the product....Show more →
But Paul... You just said that 3 out of 4 items in the box are made in China and the remaining item you consider Made in USA because you did stuff here. Fine. Does the box say "Made in USA" or "1 of 4 items Made In USA"
From where I stand, your advertising is cleverly written too.
You want to defend yourself at the same time attempting to shut down this discussion because it has no standing in a Lighting Forum? Really? If these comments were interjected into a thread about how well your Vagabond worked I'd agree with you but this thread is about this topic. Where else would you suggest the OP go to ask this question?
BTW, I'm glad that customs came through and the Vagabond Mini is now shipping! I really do think it's a cool product despite my quibbling about labeling.
Paul Buff wrote:
Contrast this to a previous post where I pointed out to predominant advertising claims on the part of a Swiss competitor who has recently changed their website banner from "Elinchrom products are Made In Switzerland" To the current "Designed and shipped from our manufacturing facilities overlooking Lake Geneva" (Switzerland).
Wasn't it also recently that the Alienbees.com website changed the huge blue "Made in USA" written across the top with the animated American flag/banner removed? You're showing signs of bad memory, Mr. Buff.
I thought it was fair and honest of you to remove that when you started getting PLMs overseas, but now I don't know what to think. You're dragged Elinchrom into the discussion for something that you yourself once did. And you didn't just drag the D-Lites, which are made in India, but the ENTIRE Elinchrom equipment lineup. Then you talk about libelous claims.
EDIT: I just wanted to add this old flickr thread. If you check all the way at the bottom where the PLM (v1) ad is, you'll see "Made in USA", yet the Chinese stole it and are selling it everywhere these days. I wonder how it could have been made here and the Chinese are pumping it out complete with "Paul C Buff" on the sides of the umbrellas. And I know it's in one of the threads here in FM where Mr. Buff talks about the PLMs being made in China because there are no factories here in the US that would make it.
I think the label "Made in USA" is being used in the same way as "effective WS" is still (to this day) being thrown around. There's a reason behind it to defend the argument and technicalities that makes it "legal", but we all know its bogus.
I have to tell you: I hate the band Styx, and Kansas, and also most of what Yes did/does , and while I used to really like Genesis, their music hasn't floated my boat since about 1976.
Seanzky wrote:
Wasn't it also recently that the Alienbees.com website changed the huge blue "Made in USA" written across the top with the animated American flag/banner removed? You're showing signs of bad memory, Mr. Buff.
I thought it was fair and honest of you to remove that when you started getting PLMs overseas, but now I don't know what to think. You're dragged Elinchrom into the discussion for something that you yourself once did. And you didn't just drag the D-Lites, which are made in India, but the ENTIRE Elinchrom equipment lineup. Then you talk about libelous claims.
EDIT: I just wanted to add this old flickr thread. If you check all the way at the bottom where the PLM (v1) ad is, you'll see "Made in USA", yet the Chinese stole it and are selling it everywhere these days. I wonder how it could have been made here and the Chinese are pumping it out complete with "Paul C Buff" on the sides of the umbrellas. And I know it's in one of the threads here in FM where Mr. Buff talks about the PLMs being made in China because there are no factories here in the US that would make it.
I think the label "Made in USA" is being used in the same way as "effective WS" is still (to this day) being thrown around. There's a reason behind it to defend the argument and technicalities that makes it "legal", but we all know its bogus. ...Show more →
The made in USA banner was added to our website without my knowledge . . . I can't completely micro manage every employee and department. As soon as I realized it was there, I ordered it removed because it was misleading because not all of our products are Made In USA and asked marketing to only refer to products that are indeed made in USA.
I suppose I could have said, ala Elinchrom: "All Buff products are designed and shipped from our manufacturing facility in Nashville, TN" That would be factual, but might it be misleading? Wouldn't you take that as an implication that all our products are manufactured in USA?
As for Elinchrom, I didn't dump on them and have nothing against the company. I simply made a point about the double standard on this forum.
As for Effective WS, we didn't initiate this method of specification, and long ago ceased placing any emphasis on it, primarily advertising true WS instead. In particular, we include every possible measure of actual light output, including the most proper term of all . . . Lumenseconds.
We include the Effective WS spec in the same way as does Photogrenic, Broncolor Visatec, Adorama ond others, except we explain and qualify the term and supply far more complete specification of every parameter.
E-Vener wrote:
I have to tell you: I hate the band Styx, and Kansas, and also most of what Yes did/does , and while I used to really like Genesis, their music hasn't floated my boat since about 1976.
I really like my Genesis coupe. It was Made in Korea, but didn't exist in 1976
Paul Buff wrote:
The made in USA banner was added to our website without my knowledge . . . I can't completely micro manage every employee and department. As soon as I realized it was there, I ordered it removed because it was misleading because not all of our products are Made In USA and asked marketing to only refer to products that are indeed made in USA.
I suppose I could have said, ala Elinchrom: "All Buff products are designed and shipped from our manufacturing facility in Nashville, TN" That would be factual, but might it be misleading? Wouldn't you take that as an implication that all our products are manufactured in USA?
As for Elinchrom, I didn't dump on them and have nothing against the company. I simply made a point about the double standard on this forum.
As for Effective WS, we didn't initiate this method of specification, and long ago ceased placing any emphasis on it, primarily advertising true WS instead. In particular, we include every possible measure of actual light output, including the most proper term of all . . . Lumenseconds.
We include the Effective WS spec in the same way as does Photogrenic, Broncolor Visatec, Adorama ond others, except we explain and qualify the term and supply far more complete specification of every parameter....Show more →
Fair enough, but what about the PLM v1 ad having "Made in USA" on it? Was that done by a rogue employee, too?
! Damn you Ellis! Now I have that song in my head for the next two days. 