I'm just speculating here, but maybe it's only American manufacturers playing by their own rules (i.e. label our products however we want) because there's not much products "Made in USA" these days.
I wonder what "assembled" really means in this context. If my tailor buys his material in bulk from overseas but cuts and sews the material into my suit in his shop here in town, I'd still call that "made in the USA." Even if major components of my automobile were sourced from overseas (especially if it's because the components are simply not available from local sources), if the parts were made from American design specs, the assembly of an automobile is yet so intricate that I'd still consider that "made in the USA," not merely "assembled."
In my head, "assembled in the USA" implies much less local input.
Kinda like trying to find an American made camera ... aint' happenin' today.
Maybe not that bad, i.e. probably are some in the US. but still ...
Reconnaissance cameras used by the US government are fully US-made. The digital sensors as well. Some component designs have leaked out into civilian use, such as Perkin-Elmer's solid cat mirror lenses.
The FTC gives several examples regarding the issue as a guidance in the above referenced website / PDF. However, in order to understand the legal context of the terminology (rather than what each individual thinks it means to them), one must go to the statutes, legal dictionaries, case studies, and rulings.
As one who has had to comply with the FAR (Federal Acquisition Regulations) in years past and enforce 29CFR1910 (Code of Federal Regulations), et al for the US Government ... learning the legal terminology in use is something that requires much study for proper understanding and interpretation ... vastly beyond the scope of this forum.
It may sound simple and obvous ... but pursuing 'obvious' rather than 'legal' is a recipe for trouble.
RDKirk wrote:
Reconnaissance cameras used by the US government are fully US-made. The digital sensors as well. Some component designs have leaked out into civilian use, such as Perkin-Elmer's solid cat mirror lenses.
Paul Buff wrote:
First, the Vagabond Mini product was designed in TN. That includes the inverter (Indeed, it is not a stock "Samlex" inverter (Samlex doesn't make inverters by the way, they are made by BA Power in Taiwan, as the Mini inverters. We did extensive redesign to BA Power's standard inverters in order to achieve the performance and reliability we wanted.
Same with the batteries . . . The individual Lithium cells are designed and manufactured by a substantial Chinese firm, but the pack itself (containing 16 cells, a controller-protection--charge/discharge regulation circuit, wiring and connector system, and custom molded housing was designed by yours truly, as was the five piece molded Vagabond housing itself and the circuitry and PC boards that together form the product from the component parts. The product itself is assembled, tested, wired and packaged (manufactured) in the US. Some of the components are made in the US and some are made in other countries.
The VML back panel bears the clear statement "Contains components from various countries of origin".
Based on what you've written, Paul, it would appear that labeling the VML "Made in USA" is inappropriate based on the FTC's definition of the phrase: "...the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content". Perhaps "Designed and assembled by Paul C. Buff, Inc., Nashville, TN" would be the more accurate and consumer-friendly way to label the VML. Please note that it is certainly not my intent to minimize your contribution to the design of the VML which I respect greatly. However, I think you would agree that the "Made in USA" imprimatur carries great weight with many of us and the standards regarding its use should be respected as well.
'Made in the USA (Contains components from various countries of origin)'
is another marketing half-truth. Vague enough to benefit from the qudos, and true enough to cover your back.
Certainly makes RustyBug happy, maybe that echoes what is wanting to be heard?
Why not just print the whole lot on the front, or is the motive that only half is really desired to be seen?
RDKirk wrote:
I wonder what "assembled" really means in this context. If my tailor buys his material in bulk from overseas but cuts and sews the material into my suit in his shop here in town, I'd still call that "made in the USA." Even if major components of my automobile were sourced from overseas (especially if it's because the components are simply not available from local sources), if the parts were made from American design specs, the assembly of an automobile is yet so intricate that I'd still consider that "made in the USA," not merely "assembled."
In my head, "assembled in the USA" implies much less local input.
Good point! But in your analogy with the fabric bought from overseas, the tailor would be creating the garment/clothing correct? He's just buying the fabric, buttons, thread, zipper, etc. overseas? I would also think that would qualify as "Made in USA" but I'm no expert. Unless of course the collars, sleeves, pockets, etc. are pre-cut. Then that would be assembling.
In this thread, what some of us are wondering is if the VML is really "Made in USA" that "contains components from various countries of origin". I mean, how many parts or components does a VML have? Inverter and battery. Are the inverter and battery which a VML consists of made in the US?
If Mr. Buff designed the concept and modified the circuitry to work with his concept, then had his concept made elsewhere, have it delivered to his door for his team to assemble and package... well, I'd call it like it is.
To begin with, in order for a product to be considered "all or virtually all" made in the United States, the final assembly or processing of the product must take place in the United States. Beyond this minimum threshold, the Commission will consider other factors, including but not limited to the portion of the product's total manufacturing costs that are attributable to U.S. parts and processing; and how far removed from the finished product any foreign content is.
The consumer perception evidence available to the Commission indicates that the country in which a product is put together or completed is highly significant to consumers in evaluating where the product is "made." Thus, regardless of the extent of a product's other U.S. parts or processing, in order to be considered all or virtually all made in the United States, it is a prerequisite that the product have been last "substantially transformed" in the United States, as that term is used by the U.S. Customs Service -- i.e., the product should not be required to be marked "made in [foreign country]" under 19 U.S.C. § 1304.(15) Furthermore, even where a product is last substantially transformed in the United States, if the product is thereafter assembled or processed (beyond de minimis finishing processes) outside the United States, the Commission is unlikely to consider that product to be all or virtually all made in the United States. For example, were a product to be manufactured primarily in the United States (and last substantially transformed there) but sent to Canada or Mexico for final assembly, any U.S. origin claim should be qualified to disclose the assembly that took place outside the United States.
I just asked a few attorneys here at work (ones I'm close to and buddy-buddy with so I don't get charged $700/hr) and explained to them the situation. They said if the finishing touches are done here, including assembly (then he retracted his statement and added "but it's more complicated than that"), then it's considered "Made in USA".
So I asked them, "what if the product only has two parts and they just need to be bagged and boxed on US soil, would that constitute as 'Made in USA'?" I showed them the photos* and they said, "no, it wouldn't".
Another thought on this topic that hopefully Mr. Buff can answer... Was the silk screen printing of the "Made in USA" label at least printed int he US?
One has to wonder how the Taiwanese would feel about printing that on something they just made.
Aaand... my Samlex inverter says "Made in Taiwan" and not "Made in Canada".
ukphotographer wrote:
'Made in the USA (Contains components from various countries of origin)'
is another marketing half-truth. Vague enough to benefit from the qudos, and true enough to cover your back.
Certainly makes RustyBug happy, maybe that echoes what is wanting to be heard?
Why not just print the whole lot on the front, or is the motive that only half is really desired to be seen?
It's not a matter of making me happy ... it's a matter of being compliant with the LAW ... everything else here is people tossing hooey around about something they know absolutely nothing about.
NOTE: The OP's original question was well founded based on the limited info on the FTC website.
I didn't make the rules, Paul didn't make the rules ... but he seems to be abiding in the rules set forth by the law.
The leniency set forth in design & interpretation of the law is something that was established by others ... so whether we agree or not, like it or not, the LAW remains the law ... until changed through due process ... go lobby congress to change the rules for advertising, marketing and labeling. I for one can't stand all the BS that exists in marketing ... but the law allows for it, so 'Caveat Emptor' is more important in today's realm than ever before.
I'm not one for 'fine print' either ... but that is part of the real world, EVERYWHERE. So, why is everyone so eager to bash on Paul when there are literally millions of other similar applications where the 'fine print' is not obvious to the initial viewing.
I was simply suggesting that Paul has, in fact, displayed an awareness of the issue as I had suggested earlier.
Carrying on this extreme line of thinking (or opinionated guessing) ... every photographer who ever uses photoshop or any other process should put a big watermark on the print stating that the image was not 100% "as shot" ... but since the law does not say that we shall do such, we don't.
Our viewers/consumers have no way of truly knowing how much was "as shot" and how much was PS ... talk about half-truth motives. The entire fashion, beauty, wedding, portrait industry, etc. is all frought with half-truths ... but since it gives the consumer what they want, it's okay for us to do so without revealing the details of how different it is from their suppositions. Yet, people want to bash someone for complying with the rules of the LAW, when they haven't even seen the finished product yet ... only a couple of sample pics that don't even show all profiles of the product.
I highly doubt the $700/hr lawyers would take a case to court based SOLELY on those three pics and the incomplete info they were provided during a chat with their buddy.
Seanzky wrote:
So I asked them, "what if the product only has two parts and they just need to be bagged and boxed on US soil, would that constitute as 'Made in USA'?" I showed them the photos* and they said, "no, it wouldn't".
You should have shown them the entire quote from Paul about what was made and designed here and what parts they get.
Instead you presented them w/ one specific view ("two parts bagged and boxed" w/ two product pictures) that supports your thinking and got the expected result IMHO. We can have a great discussion about the lame gun control "statistics" the same way
I'm sure Paul's company lawyers probably vetted the labelling already...that's part of the job of corporate lawyers...
Diavolo wrote:
You're basically saying your feel Paul C. Buff is only putting the product in a bag and putting it in a box and selling it?
Paul Buff wrote:
The product itself is assembled, tested, wired and packaged (manufactured) in the US. Some of the components are made in the US and some are made in other countries.
The VML back panel bears the clear statement "Contains components from various countries of origin".
Unless there's more involved to assembly than putting the battery into the inverter, testing to make sure the wiring and circuits are working, and "packaging" them (boxing) including the paperwork, then yes. Maybe I over simplified, but it's not like Mr. Buff said anything else.
I only have the picture of the process in my head based on what Mr. Buff said. I'm not trying to jump to conclusions here.
Diavolo wrote:
You're basically saying your feel Paul C. Buff is only putting the product in a bag and putting it in a box and selling it?
Paul Buff wrote:
The product itself is assembled, tested, wired and packaged (manufactured) in the US. Some of the components are made in the US and some are made in other countries.
The VML back panel bears the clear statement "Contains components from various countries of origin".
Seanzky wrote:
Unless there's more involved to assembly than putting the battery into the inverter, testing to make sure the wiring and circuits are working, and "packaging" them (boxing) including the paperwork, then yes. Maybe I over simplified, but it's not like Mr. Buff said anything else.
I only have the picture of the process in my head based on what Mr. Buff said. I'm not trying to jump to conclusions here.
Funny...I read somewhere that he said this:
First, the Vagabond Mini product was designed in TN. That includes the inverter (Indeed, it is not a stock "Samlex" inverter (Samlex doesn't make inverters by the way, they are made by BA Power in Taiwan, as the Mini inverters. We did extensive redesign to BA Power's standard inverters in order to achieve the performance and reliability we wanted.
Same with the batteries . . . The individual Lithium cells are designed and manufactured by a substantial Chinese firm, but the pack itself (containing 16 cells, a controller-protection--charge/discharge regulation circuit, wiring and connector system, and custom molded housing was designed by yours truly, as was the five piece molded Vagabond housing itself and the circuitry and PC boards that together form the product from the component parts. The product itself is assembled, tested, wired and packaged (manufactured) in the US. Some of the components are made in the US and some are made in other countries.
RustyBug wrote:
I highly doubt the $700/hr lawyers would take a case to court based SOLELY on those three pics and the incomplete info they were provided during a chat with their buddy.
Whoa there! Lol. I didn't say I'll be filing a law suit. You used the term "law" so freely I thought it'd only be appropriate to ask a lawyer, informally. I showed them the website with those three photos and explained the two parts and where they were sourced. Taiwan or wherever else in Asia, right? I even mentioned that PCB designed the mold (body), modified the circuitry, and battery... sent the blueprint and CAD drawings to wherever... had it made there, etc.
Based on what Mr. Buff has said, I imagine they would come in boxes by the thousands and his team would put them together, pass it along a line, test it out, bag them, pass it on where it will be bundled with the paperwork and whatever accessories, and then finally into the box. I'm sure I'm missing more than one step in the whole process but is that not the gist of it? Please let me know if I'm wrong. I don't mind being corrected.
kenyee wrote:
You should have shown them the entire quote from Paul about what was made and designed here and what parts they get.
Instead you presented them w/ one specific view ("two parts bagged and boxed" w/ two product pictures) that supports your thinking and got the expected result IMHO. We can have a great discussion about the lame gun control "statistics" the same way
I'm sure Paul's company lawyers probably vetted the labelling already...that's part of the job of corporate lawyers...
I get the feeling that the law on what makes a product "Made is USA" is loose and vague and has plenty of room for loopholes so I'm sure that his company attorneys has already made sure that the VML is "technically" and "lawfully" a "bona fide Made in USA" product and so it must be. But while the VML is indeed made here on US soil, the delays due to the logistics seem to be caused by entities "overseas". And that once they're in, they can be tested and shipped out to us with in 4-6 weeks. So I don't really know what to make of that. Maybe that's why I'm as puzzled as the OP (Dave).
