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Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

carstenw
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p.51 #1 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Keep trying. The number 1 reason for non-functioning codes is a slight misalignment of the code. The number 2 reason is the wrong pen. The ink needs not to reflect and I find the Edding better for that than the Sharpie, to be honest, although the Sharpie is more popular.

Oct 08, 2010 at 03:07 PM

denoir
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p.51 #2 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Hehe, I will. I think perhaps he'd consider a Zeiss 21, 35 cron asph and 50 lux asph as a good kit - although that would be a bit over the budget that I specified, but I think he can swing it. Perhaps it would be wiser to space it out a bit - not all the good stuff at once but start with M9 + say the 35 cron and then every month or so get a new one. I, em, I mean he likes new toys. A new toy is always exciting to play with which leads to more photography

Oct 08, 2010 at 03:09 PM

carstenw
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p.51 #3 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Yes, but not necessarily better photography. Having seen your photos here (and, err, imagining your friend's photos, *cough*), you may have found *your* setup with the 5D2 and Zeiss lenses. I found the same thing with Ulrikft and his D700, Tri-X look. He was just so clearly in his sweet spot with that setup, yet he considered a Leica M9 as well. I recommended against him selling his D700 to get the M9. These cameras are not for everyone, and I find it incredibly sad when very good photographers take a step in the wrong direction, and return angrily/disappointedly (Ulrik didn't, but some others have). Hence I would even say that starting with the M8 and Zeiss 35/2 might make sense, just to test the waters. The M8 is a fantastic camera, in some ways even a little nicer than the M9, although FF is a strong pull.

The 35 Cron ASPH is a little higher contrast, and loses some of the dreamy look. The 50 Lux ASPH is my favorite lens ever though, really truly fantastic. I hope I never come across anyone who disses that lens, I might have to renege on my violence-freedom.

Note that as good as the rangefinder system is when it is tuned right, it can take one or two trips to Leica to get all the lenses set up identically, and someone else will have to tune Zeiss lenses. Once all the lenses are the same, the rangefinder can be set up for them all. This is a step that some skip, but we are talking about a mechanical linkage with a design going back 56 years, so don't expect out of the box or maintenance-free accuracy. It requires some TLC and know-how. I always carry a little hex key for tuning. The lenses should stay in tune once set up properly.

At some point my M8 went to Leica for a rangefinder tuneup, but they still hadn't tightened up their tolerances for digital, and it came back still out of tune. I took things into my own hands, not wanting to wait another 6 weeks (the lines were long in the early days of the M8), and I have never regretted it. A bit fiddly, but with some patience, it is entirely doable. By now Leica mostly gets it right in one shot, but not always. The lucky get an entire kit off the shelf that needs no tuning, but I would guess that this is somewhat rare.

Oct 08, 2010 at 03:19 PM

philber
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p.51 #4 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Luka, I am pretty much where you are, looking at a M9 kit. I was told by some members here that the hierarachy on Zeiss lenses for RF is not the same as that for DSLR. Furthermore, that I could only shoot a 21mm if I bought the viewfinder to go with it. Conversely, on RF the 25 and 28, generally considered weaker for DSLR, were very good lenses indeed. Also that I should prefer the 35 f:2.8 to the f:2.0. Does that advice hold water?

Oct 08, 2010 at 03:33 PM

denoir
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p.51 #5 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

@Carsten:
It's true that I..um..he..no I find my...err..his setup.. no I mean he finds his.. bah. It's getting too complicated. Hold on to your chairs, I'm going to shock you but I'm not speaking of a friend of mine but of myself!

I do enjoy the set up I have and it works for me. I have some serious reservations about digital rangefinders but I really like the concept - at least in theory. I'd love to be able to have a light kit with just a few lenses while retaining good image quality. Getting the X1 was such an attempt - a camera that I could have in a jacket pocket or similar all the time and that I would not have to lug a big DSLR around. That experiment pretty much failed. Although I'm always positively surprised by the image quality I get (not quite in the same league as a FF DSLR but still very good) I am also constantly put off by the terrible user experience. It's simply no fun to use - it's slow and unreliable. The AF system is a joke. If you imagine a $100 P&S from five years ago - that's the X1 user experience. So I don't trust it and I end up lugging around a DSLR in a bag anyway.

If the M9 could provide me with a good user experience then it would probably be worth it. It's a bit too big, but I could probably live with that if it is nice enough to use. I would not throw away my DSLR - on the contrary, I expect it to be my main camera until digital medium format cameras become good enough (again poor usability is a problem, not IQ). I would however like to trust it enough that I could leave the DSLR behind.

As for getting an M8 instead.. I don't know. If I'm going to spend money on a new system I might as well go for the best available. It's going to cost me either way so I might as well spend a bit more and get the best Leica has to offer.

Regarding calibration, I do find it a bit remarkable that such an expensive system should have such quality control issues. Surely it's not cheap for Leica either to have new cameras sent to them for tuneups?

Anyway, since we're pretending this is an image thread, here are two images

Oct 08, 2010 at 03:40 PM

denoir
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p.51 #6 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

philber wrote:
Luka, I am pretty much where you are, looking at a M9 kit. I was told by some members here that the hierarachy on Zeiss lenses for RF is not the same as that for DSLR. Furthermore, that I could only shoot a 21mm if I bought the viewfinder to go with it. Conversely, on RF the 25 and 28, generally considered weaker for DSLR, were very good lenses indeed. Also that I should prefer the 35 f:2.8 to the f:2.0. Does that advice hold water?

Yes, that makes sense. The frame lines only go to 28mm - beyond that you need an external viewfinder. Also several here have stated that the Zeiss 35/2 ZM isn't all that good but that the 35/2.8 is (and it's very compact). The alternative is a Leica 35/2 Summicron which has a good reputation.

Edit: So what's your line of thinking about the M9 now Philippe? Are you going to go for it?

Oct 08, 2010 at 03:42 PM

carstenw
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p.51 #7 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Oh, that's right, good points. The 21/2.8 is meant to be great, so I would think it would be a natural fit you, but the 25 is very strong too, stronger than on DSLRs.

I *thought* the 35/2 was meant to be very good, but I really don't know, since I haven't tried it. The 35/2 ASPH is very sharp, and I guess you would like it. Tiny too. Leica lenses don't tend to produce too much 3D though, so you might miss that. If you prefer slightly higher contrast, it can be added successfully in post. I bought a 35/2 ASPH a few years ago for 1100 used, in perfect condition, so this doesn't have to suck you dry. I only sold it when I got the 35 Lux ASPH, which is a little less sharp at f/2 (not much), a little lower contrast, but great wide open. My copy is a chrome version though, with little to no focus shift, a typical problem with this particular lens. The new version doesn't have this problem. I still sometimes miss the nice little 35/2 ASPH though.

denoir wrote:
@Carsten:
It's true that I..um..he..no I find my...err..his setup.. no I mean he finds his.. bah. It's getting too complicated. Hold on to your chairs, I'm going to shock you but I'm not speaking of a friend of mine but of myself!

Whaaaaaaat

I thought you hated Leicas

As for getting an M8 instead.. I don't know. If I'm going to spend money on a new system I might as well go for the best available. It's going to cost me either way so I might as well spend a bit more and get the best Leica has to offer.

If you bought carefully, you could own for a year and sell at almost no loss. This is typical with well-kept used Leica equipment. It holds its value very well (unless the M10 comes out and the market is flooded with used M9s).

Regarding calibration, I do find it a bit remarkable that such an expensive system should have such quality control issues. Surely it's not cheap for Leica either to have new cameras sent to them for tuneups?

Yeah, well, I agree, and I would try to sweep it under the rug with a couple of superior-sounding dismissive comments, but truly, it is there. Not everyone hits it, but it happens too often to not mention, and if you expect it, you won't be so disappointed if it happens. It is just reality. Great accuracy, but needs maintenance.

Do keep in mind that different systems have different strengths. The digital Leica Ms make great B&W conversions, for some reason, so I could imagine you ending up doing a bunch of reportage-style work in B&W

You guys appear to have more money free than I at the moment. I guess you have no kids?

Oct 08, 2010 at 04:10 PM

joe88
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p.51 #8 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Luka, I still think that you should try to borrow a M9 and try it out if you can. Else, go to your local Leica dealer, ask them to put on a couple of lenses and try it out there. As Carsten mentioned, the M8 is a good way to start but if $$ is not an issue, go straight for the M9. If you are used to the 5DII and the higher pixel count, the M8 will not give you much room to crop. Also, with the M8 you need to buy additional IR/UV filters for color work and these filters will cause green flare (ghosting/ reflections) when shooting into light. I hated this. I see that you shoot quite a bit in the dark and have quite long winters in Sweden? This ghosting/ flare could be a problem for you too. Furthermore the crop factor for lenses will be different on the M8.

Oct 08, 2010 at 04:23 PM

carstenw
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p.51 #9 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Yes, the filters are a pain. Oh, and high ISO is about 1 stop better on the M9, from what I hear. Possibly important in Sweden.

Oct 08, 2010 at 04:28 PM

Bijltje
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p.51 #10 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

denoir wrote:
Yes, that makes sense. The frame lines only go to 28mm - beyond that you need an external viewfinder. Also several here have stated that the Zeiss 35/2 ZM isn't all that good but that the 35/2.8 is (and it's very compact). The alternative is a Leica 35/2 Summicron which has a good reputation.

Edit: So what's your line of thinking about the M9 now Philippe? Are you going to go for it?

The 25 ZM even won a price of being the best lens ever showing small detail (don't know the exact words anymore, and can't find it. But was on the zeiss website for some time)

One big reason for me to go with leica is the focus tab. I like the focusring of the zeiss, but the knob fits working with the leica really well. You know where the focus is.
I don't know the build quality of the zeiss ZE's, what youre used to, but the leica are really better build than the ZM's.
Besides the leica's are most of the time smaller than there zeiss counterparts.

And for the wide angle/ external viewfinder. I used the 18mm leica for some time without an external finder, just using the entire standard finder. This works quite well. I think the M9 with 21mm will be almost similar.
You can't be precise with this method. But at least you can use the range-finder to focus.

If you want to see some (I think) good reviews, try Steve Huffs website. He tested almost every leica lens, and some zeisses to.

Oct 08, 2010 at 04:29 PM

denoir
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p.51 #11 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

carstenw wrote:
You guys appear to have more money free than I at the moment. I guess you have no kids?

Correct

It does mean more money for me, but more importantly it means much more free time to do just what Luka wants.. which is to photograph

joe88 wrote:
Luka, I still think that you should try to borrow a M9 and try it out if you can. Else, go to your local Leica dealer, ask them to put on a couple of lenses and try it out there. As Carsten mentioned, the M8 is a good way to start but if $$ is not an issue, go straight for the M9. If you are used to the 5DII and the higher pixel count, the M8 will not give you much room to crop. Also, with the M8 you need to buy additional IR/UV filters for color work and...Show more →

Yes, I should try it out. I suppose that going to a camera store and trying one out is the easiest. I would love to try it on my own terms for an extended period - a week or so. But as I said, no proper camera rental service available here..

Yes our winters are long and dark and generally suck for photography. Snow is not really an ideal backdrop and to add insult to injury we don't even have any form of mountains here where snow could look cool. The only positive thing is that the light (during the very short time there is light) comes at an oblique angle looking as everything was lit through a softbox.

Oct 08, 2010 at 04:34 PM

carstenw
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p.51 #12 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Trying to compete with what you do with the 5D2 might not be the best way to be impressed with the M9. I tend to use my DSLR around Berlin and my M8 when I travel. That makes total sense, and uses each camera for its strengths. I also tend to use the M8 when I do event-type photography.

Oct 08, 2010 at 04:38 PM

denoir
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p.51 #13 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Bijltje wrote:
If you want to see some (I think) good reviews, try Steve Huffs website. He tested almost every leica lens, and some zeisses to.

Yes, his web site is great, it's just that I've lost a lot of trust in him since his warm recommendation of the Leica X1.

I did the classic mistake of thinking that because the sample pictures looked very good that it was thanks to the camera when in fact the explanation was that he's a a very good photographer.

Oct 08, 2010 at 04:42 PM

denoir
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p.51 #14 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

carstenw wrote:
Trying to compete with what you do with the 5D2 might not be the best way to be impressed with the M9. I tend to use my DSLR around Berlin and my M8 when I travel. That makes total sense, and uses each camera for its strengths. I also tend to use the M8 when I do event-type photography.

Yes that makes sense. I am however not really trying to substitute the 5DII with the M9, but the X1 with the M9. The X1 has unfortunately not lived up to my expectations. I could live with its IQ, which is good to very good, but I can't live with that I don't like using it. It's sluggish and unreliable. To me it's quite important that a camera is pleasant to use.

I should perhaps wait for the firmware upgrade for the X1 - it's supposed to come before Christmas. Still, even if they fix some things an M9 would be more versatile and better bridge the gap to the DSLR.

Oct 08, 2010 at 04:48 PM

denoir
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p.51 #15 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Charles, I have to ask about the 35/2 Bigon again. Found this review:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/02/25/the-zeiss-zm-35-biogon-f2-lens-review-on-the-leica-m9/

Some of the images are just fantastic, pure Zeiss love. Look for instance at this image.

I'd be exceptionally thrilled if my 5DII + 35/2 ZE Distagon could make that kind of picture.

Could it be that you just got a bad sample, or is it some other aspect of the lens that you didn't like?

Oct 08, 2010 at 07:19 PM

joe88
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p.51 #16 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

denoir wrote:
I did the classic mistake of thinking that because the sample pictures looked very good that it was thanks to the camera when in fact the explanation was that he's a a very good photographer.

The same thing will happen if someone decides to buy the X1 based on your pics here but didn't read the fine print in between pages

Oct 08, 2010 at 07:34 PM

joe88
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p.51 #17 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Lets add some pics to keep this in line with the picture thread. M8 35 Cron IV cropped

Oct 08, 2010 at 07:37 PM

denoir
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p.51 #18 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

joe88 wrote:
The same thing will happen if someone decides to buy the X1 based on your pics here but didn't read the fine print in between pages

Hehe, not really though. I have very few complaints about the camera/lens image quality. The X1 always surprises me with its IQ - in a positive way. My problem is that it's an unusable and unreliable piece of ****. I believe that I have been quite vocal in my complaints about it

Steve Huff on the other hand skirted the usability issues and made it sound like the ghastly slow AF and overall sluggish performance was a very minor issue.

A question - the M9, how is it in terms of performance. For instance when looking at shots on the LCD, is it slow to zoom and is it sluggish when you go to the next image?

Oct 08, 2010 at 07:49 PM

denoir
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p.51 #19 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Nice shots Joe!

Oct 08, 2010 at 07:51 PM

joe88
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p.51 #20 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

Thanks Luka

Nice shots, like the squares/geometry of the first one!

The LCD on the X1 is better than the M9/M8. On the M9 its still as sluggish as M8, that is, you can forget about checking for details and its very slow when you zoom in. Leica did improve the back-lighting making it better in the sun.

Check here for reference review sites, but I echo again as others have mentioned to you, go read up Sean Reid's subscription site for very detailed test and reviews. Just so you know, Sean shoots Leica AND Canon with Zeiss

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/99859-collecting-leica-m9-sites.html

Oct 08, 2010 at 08:07 PM

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