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Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread

  
 
rscheffler
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p.292 #1 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Here's my attempt:







and a 319x198px crop from the above M9 file after it was up-rezed to 6631px on the long side. I probably could have been more careful with the up-rez. Output from LR was at native size, though with default LR sharpening (25, 1.0, 25). The final crop was given some smart sharpening too..







ok, also without any sharpening to the final crop:








Lens: ZM21. The scene was actually a test shot for background exposure for an environmental portrait shoot. It wasn't done carefully, and probably around f/11, at which point there would be some slight diffraction degradation setting in...



Jun 01, 2011 at 05:46 PM
denoir
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p.292 #2 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


carstenw wrote:
I think your tongue is somewhere deep in your cheek

I think you need to match lenses and light conditions. 30 second night exposures are of a very different nature than bright daylight conditions, and this needs to be equalized. I also think that since the M9 is natively 18MP, it isn't fair to just resize the film scan to that. Some attention should be given to careful sharpening etc., or perhaps both should be sized to 24MP instead. I didn't even mention the 50 year-old lens yet. Try using the same lenses, guys


We can't match lenses, we can't match scenes or light conditions. I have done a couple of tests myself with the M9/M6 but 1) the films have not been developed yet 2) the results from my Epson V700 scanner are I think worse than what Heinz gets from his Minolta.

The resizing of the scanned image is of little relevance. The scanner interpolates the crap out of it anyway and a reduction in size won't significantly affect the image quality - even with bicubic resize. Had he scanned it as an 18 megapixel image the difference between it and the resized one would have most likely been zero.

I think this type of test is the best we can do when improvising like this. Of course there are a dozen of free variables - lens, film type, scanner type, raw developer, scanner software etc etc So it is in no way generally conclusive of 135mm film vs 18 Mpixel CCD. It's just a rough approximation.



Jun 01, 2011 at 05:53 PM
Morfeus
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p.292 #3 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


...plus the lab. I have the impression that the development of my C41 are absolutely crap, though they where developed in a lab that was a top notch pro lab 20 years ago when I worked with them. Now, it's a tiny shop and the earn their money with instant printing.

I have had them develop some E6 medium format in the last months and I was frequently underwhelmed to say the least. The images from Ethiopia in the other thread where developed in one of the best labs available in Germany now. It made a huge huge difference.

I have sent them some Velvia 50 rolls shot with the M2. I can't wait to see the results to compare them, but unfortunately it will take until end of next week until I have them.

I totally agree, Luka, that the best we can get it a rough approximation and let us not take that too serious. For me it is a lot of fun and very interesting. I won't stop shooting film, whatever comes out of this.

Heinz



Jun 01, 2011 at 06:04 PM
carstenw
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p.292 #4 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


denoir wrote:
I think the problem is when all the different detail levels have very high contrast - at least with the type of web resize & sharpening that I know and use. A 75 Cron (and 90 AA for that matter) shot looks better at 100% than the 90 Cron V3, but once I start sharpening and resizing I'm amplifying the finer detail in each step to be preserved in the smaller image. It tends to work well for course and fine detail, but in my experience if the mid level detail is exceptionally high the end result gets messy. You
...Show more

Hmm, what is needed is something like an S-curve, but for details instead of brightness. I wonder what using an edge-detection pass as a sharpness multiplier would do? I ought to play with this kind of thing myself. I am slowly moving closer to programming some image processing algorithms in a plugin, but it will take some more time to get there.



Jun 01, 2011 at 06:06 PM
denoir
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p.292 #5 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


carstenw wrote:
Hmm, what is needed is something like an S-curve, but for details instead of brightness. I wonder what using an edge-detection pass as a sharpness multiplier would do? I ought to play with this kind of thing myself. I am slowly moving closer to programming some image processing algorithms in a plugin, but it will take some more time to get there.


Yes, I have actually been toying with the idea of an 'MTF simulator'. You input an image and an MTF chart and the software simulates the sagittal and tangential blur according to the MTF data. I have not thought it through in detail though.

I thought of it primarily as a tool for visualizing the resolution of a lens, but it could be used for PP as well I suppose.

Heinz: It's getting late, but I'll take a look at that second DNG tomorrow.



Jun 01, 2011 at 06:26 PM
NikkorAIS
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p.292 #6 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread





50 1.0 Noctilux on Leica M9


Gregory




Jun 01, 2011 at 06:45 PM
rscheffler
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p.292 #7 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Nice image Gregory! The horse really looks like it's floating in air.

Regarding camera bags:

rscheffler wrote:
Tobin, I use the MEC Transit 4 with an insert that I custom made. With the insert it will carry three or four lenses and an M body above the lenses. I can carry 5 lenses if I keep the smallest mounted on the body. If you plan to only travel with two lenses, there will be room for extra batteries, hoods, etc. in the bag. At the moment I use a small cell phone pouch attached to the strap to carry the extras.

The best part is it's about 10% the price of a higher end photo bag like those
...Show more

So here are some photos...

The bag itself, with equipment inside. As mentioned above, the pouch on the side is something extra I had kicking around and use it here to hold a couple extra batteries, viewfinders, hood, etc.

The zipper you see on the front is a small pocket, large enough to carry some papers. I use it for a cleaning cloth.







View from above with the M9 and ZM35C lens resting on top of the custom-made insert with lenses below. When traveling with the camera in the bag I keep the caps on the lenses below to avoid any accidental surprises, though I may leave the cap off the 35mm for quick photos. Note that I bought the camera used and the LCD cover was already fairly scratched, therefore I'm not overly concerned about the camera rubbing on the lens caps below. A remedy would be a small cloth between the camera and lenses:







View from above without the camera. It's possible to carry up to four 'normal' size M lenses. Something like the 21, 24 or 75 Lux might be a tight fit, though I haven't been able to test that yet:







This is the insert removed from the bag. The initial concept was two pieces of extra thick cardboard cut to fit the slightly non-rectangular shape of the bag. The cardboard pieces cross in the middle to allow four items to be carried without touching each other.. in theory. There were a couple problems with this design: the finely ribbed metal lens surfaces rubbed against the cardboard resulting in fine cardboard particles in the bag and on the lenses. When the bag was fully loaded, everything stayed in place just fine, but during use, the dividers would ride up and lenses would sink underneath. The solution I decided on was to use microfiber car cleaning cloths to cover the cardboard, which I sewed on (using all the sewing skills I could muster ). With the two dividers together in an X, I then sewed another microfiber cloth to the bottom and along the edges of the dividers. This last step keeps the lenses sitting in the insert, rather than sinking under it. The most time consuming aspect was sewing. A useful aspect of the microfiber cloth, other than its softness, was that it could be cut and welded together with a soldering iron, which saved time by avoiding more sewing:







Lenses in the insert are the ZM21, ZM50P, CV75 f/1.8 clockwise from the right. The insert is just deep enough for the CV75 so that the camera can rest above, flush to the insert.

OK, the bag is perhaps a bit 'manbag' but so far it's the best I've found that is just large enough to carry my M kit, isn't excessively padded (it actually has almost no padding, other than the side against one's body, which I prefer), has a zip top for easy access rather than a flap, and was inexpensive (though did cost me half a day in design and sewing the final insert).

Maybe I should go into business selling these for $100?



Jun 01, 2011 at 07:55 PM
Tobin28
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p.292 #8 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Hey rsolti13 and everyone with the bag advice!

Thanks guys I have ordered the 7100 A&A bag cannot wait to get it!



Jun 01, 2011 at 08:43 PM
Morfeus
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p.292 #9 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Charles, thank you for the comment and for posting the image, I totally forgot that last night as I was too tired.

Concerning the grain at 100%: the Minolta has a true optical resolution of 4800 x 4800 dpi and a density of 4.2. Those are dream values. On a normal consumer scanner like the Epsons you will not see any grain (I think) as they can simply not resolve that much detail.

I also agree that you will not see this in print. The full print size of my files at 300dpi would be A2 = approximately 60 x 42cm. If you look at the second image at the marking of the cropped area you can clearly see that, at normal viewing distance, you would see nothing than a totally sharp image.

Now, when it comes to PP I am still trying out a lot of things, this is why I was so interested in your Photoshop action. What I have found so far is, that leaving sharpness and clarity at zero in LR is a must (if you want to work on the file in PS) and set the luminance noise reduction to a value of approximately 20, a value that I would never use on a digital file, and then go to PS and do the sharpening.
In general, working with scans needs totally different values in LR that on digital files. On the one hand you can use much more aggressive values, on the other you can mess up things much more easily if you plan to go ahead in Photoshop. All in all thats not easy, as you permanently have to switch the workflow when you work on both, digital and scanned film files.

Heinz




Jun 02, 2011 at 01:44 AM
charles.K
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p.292 #10 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Heinz, I agree! I have tried various PP methods, and it is definitely different. I do find downsizing for web presentation is also very different. At full size the file looks great, but downsizing with very minimal smart sharpening in the Light channel, in stages still does not look clean, too strong. Interesting and challenging I do like the luminance noise reduction in ACR, as it can quickly cleans up the grain, much the same as for high ISO noisy shots at night. The noise reduction is definitely superior in CS5 than C1 Pro for now.

Heinz, I just wanted to add that your shots from Ethiopia, with the Rolleiflex T, Carl Zeiss Tessar 75mm f/3.5, Velvia 50, are truly stunning in every respect! Amazing shots!

Edited on Jun 02, 2011 at 02:19 AM · View previous versions



Jun 02, 2011 at 02:11 AM
 


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denoir
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p.292 #11 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Thanks Charles

Morfeus wrote:
Concerning the grain at 100%: the Minolta has a true optical resolution of 4800 x 4800 dpi and a density of 4.2. Those are dream values. On a normal consumer scanner like the Epsons you will not see any grain (I think) as they can simply not resolve that much detail.


You would see the grain. The Epson V700 has a native optical resolution of 6400dpi and a density of 4.0.

Here's a sample - a raw scan without modifications @ 3200dpi so that you can compare.

Ektar 100, Epson V700, 3200dpi

This is what I can make of it at web size after PP (selective sharpening etc):










I also agree that you will not see this in print. The full print size of my files at 300dpi would be A2 = approximately 60 x 42cm. If you look at the second image at the marking of the cropped area you can clearly see that, at normal viewing distance, you would see nothing than a totally sharp image.


I think it depends on your requirements for the print quality. As a rule I like one to be able to get close to my images and discover new details. From a scanned 135 file, I'd be very hesitant to go beyond an A4 print - much less an A3 or A2. With M9 files I'm comfortable with up to about A2. You can of course print bigger, but you'll see a loss of detail when you get close.




Jun 02, 2011 at 02:18 AM
Morfeus
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p.292 #12 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


denoir wrote:
You would see the grain. The Epson V700 has a native optical resolution of 6400dpi and a density of 4.0.


I have to disagree. Have a look here

http://filmscanner.info/en/EpsonPerfectionV700Photo.html

and look at the USAF test chart and the measurements besides it. In reality we are talking about an actual resolution of 2300dpi, which is still not bad at all for a flatbed scanner.

Heinz



Jun 02, 2011 at 02:35 AM
denoir
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p.292 #13 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


That goes for essentially all scanners - claimed vs real. Including the Minolta. I agree that there is no point in scanning above 2400 dpi. I would however say the same thing for the scans with the Minolta. If you compare your scans with the one that I posted you'll see that there is little difference in actual detail captured.


Jun 02, 2011 at 02:40 AM
Morfeus
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p.292 #14 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


True that there is not much point in scanning 24 x 36 film above 2400dpi.

I had an el cheapo Reflecta before, and I was very satisfied. I mainly bought the Minolta for medium format.

Still, the Minolta is a pro scanner, so I think the quality of the optics they used is much better than the ones used in any consumer scanner. And, every test I am aware off from the Minolta says that the resolution is not claimed but real. It was mainly sold to pros, not consumers.

But let us not take this technical discussion too far here in this thread. I also want to wait for the Velvia slides to scan. I just looked at some earlier scans of Velvia slides and could not believe my eyes. It is quite possible that the scans of the Ektar are far below of what one could get with optimal source material.



Jun 02, 2011 at 02:53 AM
denoir
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p.292 #15 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Well, I took a closer look now at your second scan and a scan of my own of a similar subject. On closer inspection, I do think the Minolta has an edge. You are right that the Minolta is a Pro scanner, but it's a 10 year old pro scanner - released in 2001. Digital imaging - including scanning has improved over the years. I'd be curious to see what a modern equivalent could do - i.e to see if we are talking about scanner limits here or simply the limits of the film medium.

Anyway, here's my second test shot:








I scanned it at 4800 dpi and set the image size to be the same as the one of your scan.
Here is the the full scan.

And here are two comparison crops between the two scans:







I think the Minolta does show a bit more detail but it is difficult to tell with two completely different images.

Image quality aside, what I would *really* like is a film scanner that doesn't require a holder - i.e that you can feed the negatives directly into it.



Jun 02, 2011 at 03:04 AM
Morfeus
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p.292 #16 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Well, maybe it's wishfull thinking, but your scan looks softer and less detailed, as you mentioned. We possibly should send each other a negative .

Anyhow, one last technical remark: Rockwell has measured a resolution of 63.5 lpmm:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/minolta/mprez.htm




Jun 02, 2011 at 03:13 AM
Morfeus
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p.292 #17 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


The Nikon 9000 can scan a complete roll of film without holder if I recall that correctly. Also one Reflecta/Pacific Imaging model can do that.


Jun 02, 2011 at 03:15 AM
Morfeus
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p.292 #18 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


I just examined your full res image again, Luka. That really looks good. There are differences, but not as big as I expected. Look at 100% at the middle of the red diagonal metal bar in my image and compare it to the middle of the left handrail of the ladder in yours.


Jun 02, 2011 at 03:25 AM
carstenw
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p.292 #19 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


The best scanners for quick strip scanning are probably the Imacon/Hasselblad scanners, which have very low-hassle holders. They are very expensive though, around the price of an M9 for some models, and more for others. Second-hand they still remain expensive. They are generally considered to be better than anything short of a drum scanner.


Jun 02, 2011 at 03:33 AM
singletrack
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p.292 #20 · Leica M/X/T/S/Q/CL/SL Picture Thread


Wow, this is awesome! Thx Denoir and Morfeus!
I have gotten my negs scanned by a coolscan 9000 provider - 4 pass 16 bit, Tiff files. I think your scans here look better

This full sized jpg of a Kodak 400 VC Portra was done with a 1x pass scanning

I shall upload better scans for you to see a sample of the Coolscan 9000 output.

Btw, does anyone know of a good place for 2nd hand leica film bodies in London? A friend of mine is asking.

Cheers

klfull sized pic



Jun 02, 2011 at 03:48 AM
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