Leica R Series Lenses
p.146 #2Leica R Series Lenses
Hi all,
This is my first post here. I am interested in purchasing an APO-ELMARIT 180/2.8 for use with the Nikon D800E (Leitax-conversion). I would like to revisit the 'ninja star' issue Samuli has brought up regarding the shape of OOF highlights at medium to small apertures (see this post: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/895186/108#10671320).
If I read his and the following posts correctly, the preliminary conclusion of this discussion was that there are differences in the shape of the apertures between the two different versions of this lens (Leica P/N 11273, which is only compatible with the 2x TC; and P/N 11357, which is compatible with both 1.4x and 2x TCs). This page lists the years when the different lens models were introduced: http://www.pebbleplace.com/Leica_DB/Table_L05.html
Therefore, we can assume that all APO-ELMARIT 180/2.8 lenses produced between 1998 and 2003 are of the old type (P/N 11273). Going by Ken Rockwell's list of Leica lens serial numbers (http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/lens-serial-numbers.htm), this would translate into the following serial number range for the old model: 3818625 - 3999999.
I would really like to get to the bottom of this issue, and would therefore be very grateful if those of you who own a lens of this type could help out. Here's the information I'm looking for:
- Lenses with S/Ns below 4000000: does the aperture assume a 'ninja star' shape when stopped down to f/8 or f/11?
- Lenses with S/Ns above 4000000 *and* known to be compatible with the 1.4x TC: same question as above.
Images of the actual shape of the aperture (e.g. taken with a cell phone), would be excellent!
Many thanks in advance for any feedback!
Warm regards from chilly Switzerland,
Ron
This is my first post here. I am interested in purchasing an APO-ELMARIT 180/2.8 for use with the Nikon D800E (Leitax-conversion). I would like to revisit the 'ninja star' issue Samuli has brought up regarding the shape of OOF highlights at medium to small apertures (see this post: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/895186/108#10671320).
If I read his and the following posts correctly, the preliminary conclusion of this discussion was that there are differences in the shape of the apertures between the two different versions of this lens (Leica P/N 11273, which is only compatible with the 2x TC; and P/N 11357, which is compatible with both 1.4x and 2x TCs). This page lists the years when the different lens models were introduced: http://www.pebbleplace.com/Leica_DB/Table_L05.html
Therefore, we can assume that all APO-ELMARIT 180/2.8 lenses produced between 1998 and 2003 are of the old type (P/N 11273). Going by Ken Rockwell's list of Leica lens serial numbers (http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/lens-serial-numbers.htm), this would translate into the following serial number range for the old model: 3818625 - 3999999.
I would really like to get to the bottom of this issue, and would therefore be very grateful if those of you who own a lens of this type could help out. Here's the information I'm looking for:
- Lenses with S/Ns below 4000000: does the aperture assume a 'ninja star' shape when stopped down to f/8 or f/11?
- Lenses with S/Ns above 4000000 *and* known to be compatible with the 1.4x TC: same question as above.
Images of the actual shape of the aperture (e.g. taken with a cell phone), would be excellent!
Many thanks in advance for any feedback!
Warm regards from chilly Switzerland,
Ron
Jan 29, 2013 at 04:54 PM
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p.146 #3Leica R Series Lenses
Ron, you are starting the discussion about real secrets of Leica-R lenses + different undocumented coatings 
) Half of R-lenses have that issues. Some less, some more...
And only real owners can do this information, and better that they has 5-10 same lenses for comparison and statistics by s/n
About 180/2.8apo my friend already recieved his 180 and seems that it has ninja even at f/8
I'll recieve my 180 apo soon.. and also can say about this. I'm sure that it will be ninja too. In general, when I analysis this situation a some times ago with many R-lenses, seems that brain of leica-designers was in his ass a long long time regarding aperture units internal design... Unfortunately.
) Half of R-lenses have that issues. Some less, some more...And only real owners can do this information, and better that they has 5-10 same lenses for comparison and statistics by s/n
About 180/2.8apo my friend already recieved his 180 and seems that it has ninja even at f/8
I'll recieve my 180 apo soon.. and also can say about this. I'm sure that it will be ninja too. In general, when I analysis this situation a some times ago with many R-lenses, seems that brain of leica-designers was in his ass a long long time regarding aperture units internal design... Unfortunately.
Jan 29, 2013 at 05:39 PM
p.146 #4Leica R Series Lenses
FYI, even 50lux M ASPH has that kind of Bokeh highlight after f2.8. I prefer circle but don't feel really bothered by that.
Jan 29, 2013 at 05:51 PM
p.146 #5Leica R Series Lenses
Ron, here is what Alex said about ninja aperture.
It started from 1/2 stop above 2.8 all the way before 11.
Mine started with 389xxxx and one of my friend's is 379xxxx. Both has same ninja star aperture. I am not sure what is Alex's serial number. I stop craziness with Leica R lens after this. No more R lens and will go with zeiss. Other brand will have great bokeh like R can provide. It is not worth to pay $$$$ for just subtle difference.
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It started from 1/2 stop above 2.8 all the way before 11.
Mine started with 389xxxx and one of my friend's is 379xxxx. Both has same ninja star aperture. I am not sure what is Alex's serial number. I stop craziness with Leica R lens after this. No more R lens and will go with zeiss. Other brand will have great bokeh like R can provide. It is not worth to pay $$$$ for just subtle difference.
Jan 29, 2013 at 06:36 PM
p.146 #6Leica R Series Lenses
Ron Pfister wrote:
I would really like to get to the bottom of this issue, and would therefore be very grateful if those of you who own a lens of this type [180mm APO-Elmarit-R] could help out. Here's the information I'm looking for:
- Lenses with S/Ns below 4000000: does the aperture assume a 'ninja star' shape when stopped down to f/8 or f/11?
- Lenses with S/Ns above 4000000 *and* known to be compatible with the 1.4x TC: same question as above.
Mine is an early version (s/n 3798xxx) modified by Leica to work with the 1.4x APO-Extender-R and the ninja-star aperture shape is visible to varying degrees until stopped down past f/8
I would really like to get to the bottom of this issue, and would therefore be very grateful if those of you who own a lens of this type [180mm APO-Elmarit-R] could help out. Here's the information I'm looking for:
- Lenses with S/Ns below 4000000: does the aperture assume a 'ninja star' shape when stopped down to f/8 or f/11?
- Lenses with S/Ns above 4000000 *and* known to be compatible with the 1.4x TC: same question as above.
Mine is an early version (s/n 3798xxx) modified by Leica to work with the 1.4x APO-Extender-R and the ninja-star aperture shape is visible to varying degrees until stopped down past f/8
Jan 29, 2013 at 08:00 PM
p.146 #7Leica R Series Lenses
'I stop craziness with Leica R lens after this. No more R lens and will go with zeiss.'
Interesting decision-making process. Did Leica mislead its clientele, and is this lens intended primarily for conditions likely to see this result arise? My Google search showed up a handful of references only, prominently from this website, in fact.
However, 'subtle' is not a word most would use to describe the differences seen in images from Leica R lenses compared to other makers, impartial observers that is. One of those YMMV situations, bug or feature?
Son had this to say back in 2005, I am not sure he is being critical of the effect, so perhaps it's a fashion thing. His conclusion differs also:
'This Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 180mm F2.8 ROM and the Leica Apo-Summicron-R F2.0 are the only two Leitz lens that has the ninja star aperature (sic) opening at fast f stops. As you stop down this ninja star will disappear. It is also the only lens that I tested that can beat the Canon EF 200mm F1.8L at infinity focus.'
Interesting decision-making process. Did Leica mislead its clientele, and is this lens intended primarily for conditions likely to see this result arise? My Google search showed up a handful of references only, prominently from this website, in fact.
However, 'subtle' is not a word most would use to describe the differences seen in images from Leica R lenses compared to other makers, impartial observers that is. One of those YMMV situations, bug or feature?
Son had this to say back in 2005, I am not sure he is being critical of the effect, so perhaps it's a fashion thing. His conclusion differs also:
'This Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 180mm F2.8 ROM and the Leica Apo-Summicron-R F2.0 are the only two Leitz lens that has the ninja star aperature (sic) opening at fast f stops. As you stop down this ninja star will disappear. It is also the only lens that I tested that can beat the Canon EF 200mm F1.8L at infinity focus.'
Jan 29, 2013 at 08:32 PM
p.146 #8Leica R Series Lenses
Zeiss has plenty of ninja stars, too (many Contax AE) --- or you can get pentagons instead (Zeiss Hasselblad)
Jan 29, 2013 at 08:43 PM
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p.146 #9Leica R Series Lenses
philip_pj wrote:
...I am not sure he is being critical of the effect, so perhaps it's a fashion thing...
It is obvious design error of the lenses. All simple. No need to look for something hidden there, where it is not.
...I am not sure he is being critical of the effect, so perhaps it's a fashion thing...
It is obvious design error of the lenses. All simple. No need to look for something hidden there, where it is not.
Jan 30, 2013 at 01:54 AM
p.146 #10Leica R Series Lenses
Worldinlens wrote:
Almass, cool pictures
Alex. Spasiba.
Almass wrote
Leica R 28/2.8 VII goes fishy fishy Alex. Spasiba.
Jan 30, 2013 at 03:09 AM
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p.146 #11Leica R Series Lenses
No one asked this question, but I checked my 180mm f/2 APO-Summicron-R, and it has a slight ninja (blue-belt, say) aperture from f/2.4-f/3.6, with f/3.6 being very, very slight, and the worst point being only about half as pronounced as the photo above. Interestingly, depending on where you look from, you can also see slight assymmetricality of the aperture wide open, with a little ninja on one side only. If you place your eye where the film/sensor would be, you cannot see this, however, and the opening is perfectly round. The serial number start with 3740.
Jan 30, 2013 at 03:12 AM
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p.146 #12Leica R Series Lenses
Carsten, with the R80/1.4 and with your "bomb" you can't see strong influence the apertures ninja-shape for the bokeh circles near WO, because it is very wide-aperture schemes, art-lenses. But with 90/2, or 180/2.8, or 280/4 you can see very clear this effect
Jan 30, 2013 at 03:25 AM
p.146 #13Leica R Series Lenses
When you say "very wide aperture schemes", do you mean that the physical aperture opens up more than it needs to, wide open?
Jan 30, 2013 at 03:53 AM
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p.146 #14Leica R Series Lenses
I mean, a high ratio of the focal length to the maximum aperture. Anyway at medium focal lengths, it distorts the bokeh, which eliminates the ninja-effect. For exapmle, when I shot on 50E60 or 80/1.4 near wide open with ninja-apertures I can't see on the shots. When I shot with 90/2 near wide open with ninja - I clear see this aperture's shape in the bokeh circles
Jan 30, 2013 at 04:07 AM
p.146 #15Leica R Series Lenses
The 280/4 shows slight edge at 5.6 and half clicks either way only.
The Lux 80 has a slight edge at f2 (+/- half clicks)
The 90/2 AA is clear as well as the 50/2 and the 28/2.8. The 100/2.8 Apo is clear too.
I sold my Cron 180 sometime ago and will take Carsten word for it.
The 180/2.8 APO VII shows Ninja, albeit to a lesser extent that VI.
Frankly, it does not matter. I would not use a long Tele for backlit or front lit Macro shots anyway. I would use the 100/2.8 Macro on a tripod, not that I do much Macro anyway!
Any characteristic Bokeh effect shows only in very specific shooting situations and, for example, the famous "Swirly" Bokeh effect belongs mainly to the Biotar 75/1.5 and the Meyer Trioplan 100/2.8, add to that the Helios 44/2......but only in specific shooting conditions.
In conclusion. the 180/2.8 APO has a Ninja star on both version with a lower extent on the VII. Both lenses are not exactly made for Macro conditions!
Then again, one can shoot whatever he likes with whatever equipment and whinge about it one way or the other!
The Lux 80 has a slight edge at f2 (+/- half clicks)
The 90/2 AA is clear as well as the 50/2 and the 28/2.8. The 100/2.8 Apo is clear too.
I sold my Cron 180 sometime ago and will take Carsten word for it.
The 180/2.8 APO VII shows Ninja, albeit to a lesser extent that VI.
Frankly, it does not matter. I would not use a long Tele for backlit or front lit Macro shots anyway. I would use the 100/2.8 Macro on a tripod, not that I do much Macro anyway!
Any characteristic Bokeh effect shows only in very specific shooting situations and, for example, the famous "Swirly" Bokeh effect belongs mainly to the Biotar 75/1.5 and the Meyer Trioplan 100/2.8, add to that the Helios 44/2......but only in specific shooting conditions.
In conclusion. the 180/2.8 APO has a Ninja star on both version with a lower extent on the VII. Both lenses are not exactly made for Macro conditions!
Then again, one can shoot whatever he likes with whatever equipment and whinge about it one way or the other!
Jan 30, 2013 at 04:24 AM
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p.146 #16Leica R Series Lenses
Almass wrote:
In conclusion. the 180/2.8 APO has a Ninja star on both version
And most interesting, that old 180/2.8 v.2 almost has no ninja
In conclusion. the 180/2.8 APO has a Ninja star on both version
And most interesting, that old 180/2.8 v.2 almost has no ninja
Jan 30, 2013 at 04:42 AM
p.146 #17Leica R Series Lenses
Worldinlens wrote:
And most interesting, that old 180/2.8 v.2 almost has no ninja
I like "almost"
Almass wrote
In conclusion. the 180/2.8 APO has a Ninja star on both versionI like "almost"
Jan 30, 2013 at 04:44 AM
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p.146 #18Leica R Series Lenses
)))) I knows that you say thisReally, a small ninja on half-stop from WO, and at f/4 all clear. Fact.
Jan 30, 2013 at 04:49 AM
p.146 #19Leica R Series Lenses
Edited on Jan 30, 2013 at 05:26 AM · View previous versions
Jan 30, 2013 at 04:52 AM
p.146 #20Leica R Series Lenses
Almass, ninja in the R80 and R50E60 does not affect the image. You can safely forget about such an effect with this lenses
Jan 30, 2013 at 05:02 AM