This is my first post here. I am interested in purchasing an APO-ELMARIT 180/2.8 for use with the Nikon D800E (Leitax-conversion). I would like to revisit the 'ninja star' issue Samuli has brought up regarding the shape of OOF highlights at medium to small apertures (see this post: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/895186/108#10671320).
If I read his and the following posts correctly, the preliminary conclusion of this discussion was that there are differences in the shape of the apertures between the two different versions of this lens (Leica P/N 11273, which is only compatible with the 2x TC; and P/N 11357, which is compatible with both 1.4x and 2x TCs). This page lists the years when the different lens models were introduced: http://www.pebbleplace.com/Leica_DB/Table_L05.html
Therefore, we can assume that all APO-ELMARIT 180/2.8 lenses produced between 1998 and 2003 are of the old type (P/N 11273). Going by Ken Rockwell's list of Leica lens serial numbers (http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/lens-serial-numbers.htm), this would translate into the following serial number range for the old model: 3818625 - 3999999.
I would really like to get to the bottom of this issue, and would therefore be very grateful if those of you who own a lens of this type could help out. Here's the information I'm looking for:
- Lenses with S/Ns below 4000000: does the aperture assume a 'ninja star' shape when stopped down to f/8 or f/11?
- Lenses with S/Ns above 4000000 *and* known to be compatible with the 1.4x TC: same question as above.
Images of the actual shape of the aperture (e.g. taken with a cell phone), would be excellent!
Ron, you are starting the discussion about real secrets of Leica-R lenses + different undocumented coatings ) Half of R-lenses have that issues. Some less, some more...
And only real owners can do this information, and better that they has 5-10 same lenses for comparison and statistics by s/n
About 180/2.8apo my friend already recieved his 180 and seems that it has ninja even at f/8
I'll recieve my 180 apo soon.. and also can say about this. I'm sure that it will be ninja too. In general, when I analysis this situation a some times ago with many R-lenses, seems that brain of leica-designers was in his ass a long long time regarding aperture units internal design... Unfortunately.
It started from 1/2 stop above 2.8 all the way before 11.
Mine started with 389xxxx and one of my friend's is 379xxxx. Both has same ninja star aperture. I am not sure what is Alex's serial number. I stop craziness with Leica R lens after this. No more R lens and will go with zeiss. Other brand will have great bokeh like R can provide. It is not worth to pay $$$$ for just subtle difference.
Ron Pfister wrote:
I would really like to get to the bottom of this issue, and would therefore be very grateful if those of you who own a lens of this type [180mm APO-Elmarit-R] could help out. Here's the information I'm looking for:
- Lenses with S/Ns below 4000000: does the aperture assume a 'ninja star' shape when stopped down to f/8 or f/11?
- Lenses with S/Ns above 4000000 *and* known to be compatible with the 1.4x TC: same question as above.
Mine is an early version (s/n 3798xxx) modified by Leica to work with the 1.4x APO-Extender-R and the ninja-star aperture shape is visible to varying degrees until stopped down past f/8
'I stop craziness with Leica R lens after this. No more R lens and will go with zeiss.'
Interesting decision-making process. Did Leica mislead its clientele, and is this lens intended primarily for conditions likely to see this result arise? My Google search showed up a handful of references only, prominently from this website, in fact.
However, 'subtle' is not a word most would use to describe the differences seen in images from Leica R lenses compared to other makers, impartial observers that is. One of those YMMV situations, bug or feature?
Son had this to say back in 2005, I am not sure he is being critical of the effect, so perhaps it's a fashion thing. His conclusion differs also:
'This Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 180mm F2.8 ROM and the Leica Apo-Summicron-R F2.0 are the only two Leitz lens that has the ninja star aperature (sic) opening at fast f stops. As you stop down this ninja star will disappear. It is also the only lens that I tested that can beat the Canon EF 200mm F1.8L at infinity focus.'
No one asked this question, but I checked my 180mm f/2 APO-Summicron-R, and it has a slight ninja (blue-belt, say) aperture from f/2.4-f/3.6, with f/3.6 being very, very slight, and the worst point being only about half as pronounced as the photo above. Interestingly, depending on where you look from, you can also see slight assymmetricality of the aperture wide open, with a little ninja on one side only. If you place your eye where the film/sensor would be, you cannot see this, however, and the opening is perfectly round. The serial number start with 3740.
Carsten, with the R80/1.4 and with your "bomb" you can't see strong influence the apertures ninja-shape for the bokeh circles near WO, because it is very wide-aperture schemes, art-lenses. But with 90/2, or 180/2.8, or 280/4 you can see very clear this effect
I mean, a high ratio of the focal length to the maximum aperture. Anyway at medium focal lengths, it distorts the bokeh, which eliminates the ninja-effect. For exapmle, when I shot on 50E60 or 80/1.4 near wide open with ninja-apertures I can't see on the shots. When I shot with 90/2 near wide open with ninja - I clear see this aperture's shape in the bokeh circles
The 280/4 shows slight edge at 5.6 and half clicks either way only.
The Lux 80 has a slight edge at f2 (+/- half clicks)
The 90/2 AA is clear as well as the 50/2 and the 28/2.8. The 100/2.8 Apo is clear too.
I sold my Cron 180 sometime ago and will take Carsten word for it.
The 180/2.8 APO VII shows Ninja, albeit to a lesser extent that VI.
Frankly, it does not matter. I would not use a long Tele for backlit or front lit Macro shots anyway. I would use the 100/2.8 Macro on a tripod, not that I do much Macro anyway!
Any characteristic Bokeh effect shows only in very specific shooting situations and, for example, the famous "Swirly" Bokeh effect belongs mainly to the Biotar 75/1.5 and the Meyer Trioplan 100/2.8, add to that the Helios 44/2......but only in specific shooting conditions.
In conclusion. the 180/2.8 APO has a Ninja star on both version with a lower extent on the VII. Both lenses are not exactly made for Macro conditions!
Then again, one can shoot whatever he likes with whatever equipment and whinge about it one way or the other!
) Half of R-lenses have that issues. Some less, some more...
