RCGuy wrote:
You said: "You all want to sit back and call us a bunch of elitiss and in the same breath you ask how to get credentialed on the sidelines with us."
When you use the word "us" that automatically includes yourself. Thus, I asked why you assume anyone here is referring to you in the first place. If you are not an elitist photog, then you are not part of the group that is being questioned.
Ahhhh! back to the grind.
Well, Rob, you need to be a little more clear in your comments then, as well as read my responses a little better before posting what you think is a good rebuttal.
See in your first post, you use the word YOU, meaning me specifically. My reply to that was that you were assuming I was thinking it was all about me, when in fact I wasn't. I took the comments as such, and being directed towards a group of individuals who I was a part of. Then finally in your cool little response, you simply reiterated what I had already said, that I was including myself in that group because I am a professional shooter and the comments are being generalized towards professional shooters.
So, Rob, please do me a favour and feel free to correct yourself at any point.
Did, you mean to say that I was taking these comments as a personal attack and there fore thinking it was always about me as you said in your first post. Or, As I said in my reply and you so graciously echoed in your snide response, am I part of said elitist group and simply defending us as a whole.
Me_XMan wrote:
These pro's should get Photoshop credential as well.
They can press button to operate camera but they don't know how to do post-processing. I've seen many and I can do way better job in PP.
To get sideline access, develop my skills and make money as a freelancer.
I kind of fell into it. My stepson start playing H.S. rugby a few years ago. I started attending a few games with my gear and got some decent shots. I met a guy at one of the games who writes a rugby column for an online publication. He asked me to send him shots and he would run them (with accreditation) on the website - no compensation.
From this working relationship I was able to get media credentials for the Churchill Cup tournament in Denver and even sold a picture to Rugby magazine. This year went out and shot the Vegas 7's tourney on the sidelines. Unfortunately I sold no pictures of this event.
So, no real problems getting credentials - at least for a sport that is below the radar of many people. My problem is I don't have a clue on how to market myself. I am a competent shooter and have decent equipment (D300/MB-D10, 70-200 vr and 300/2.8 afs), but I need direction/advice on how let picture buyers know I exist.
As an aside, most of the pro shooters I've met have been pretty decent guys, no snobs, just guys doing their jobs.
Well, Rob, you need to be a little more clear in your comments then, as well as read my responses a little better before posting what you think is a good rebuttal.
See in your first post, you use the word YOU, meaning me specifically. My reply to that was that you were assuming I was thinking it was all about me, when in fact I wasn't. I took the comments as such, and being directed towards a group of individuals who I was a part of. Then finally in your cool little response, you simply reiterated what I had already said, that I was including myself in that group because I am a professional shooter and the comments are being generalized towards professional shooters.
So, Rob, please do me a favour and feel free to correct yourself at any point.
Did, you mean to say that I was taking these comments as a personal attack and there fore thinking it was always about me as you said in your first post. Or, As I said in my reply and you so graciously echoed in your snide response, am I part of said elitist group and simply defending us as a whole....Show more →
Instead of playing boring semantics, I'll just simply state it again.
If you are not an elitist snob photographer, then none of the criticisms against those kinds of photographers apply to you.
And in case you can't get it through your thick skull I will use some nice big capital letters for you so it's nice and easy to read.
I AM SIMPLY STICKING UP FOR A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT SOME INDIVIDUALS ON THIS FORUM SEEM TO HAVE A MISCONCEPTION OF.
Man, are you and Me_XMan related, do you work together, live in the same town even?
If I knew how I would be inserting about 10 dozen "head banging against the wall" emoticons right now, but I don't. So if somebody wants to do it for me, go nutz!
Rick Denham wrote:
And in case you can't get it through your thick skull I will use some nice big capital letters for you so it's nice and easy to read.
I AM SIMPLY STICKING UP FOR A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT SOME INDIVIDUALS ON THIS FORUM SEEM TO HAVE A MISCONCEPTION OF.
Man, are you and Me_XMan related, do you work together, live in the same town even?
If I knew how I would be inserting about 10 dozen "head banging against the wall" emoticons right now, but I don't. So if somebody wants to do it for me, go nutz!
I never criticized you for "simply sticking up for a group of people"...I merely said that if your are not an elitist snob phorographer, then my critiques are not directed towards you.
The vast majority of people reading here don't even know who you are. No one is judging you specifically. Only you can decide for yourself if you are an elitist snob photographer.
Really, no need to blow a gasket over a message forum lol.
I simply want to be credentialed to provide actual photos for an article being written.
I hate it when newpapers pull some photo out of the archive and use instead of the game winning photo from the actual event. I don't even care about the money, I just want accurate reporting and photojournalism.
I do it for free, in hopes that the media can make an actual article with photos included, instead of some little comments or box score.
I do it because I want more exposure to the Olympic Sports I love and believe more coverage is deserved.
The only reason I want photo credentials is so I can be run over and have my gear kicked during the NCAA tournaments.
All kidding aside. I love shooting and have been fortunate enough to shoot some great events. It's not my full time gig but I have been getting work regularly and keep booking events. So, I'm happy.
To get free food! ... Really with what the surf industry pays these days I like a good catered breakfast and lunch But it is nice to be able to get the shot a little easier and great for dealing with the crowd!
I really don't come across many photo snobs in my travels but those TV guys, They're insufferable. ( just make sure you are nice to the boom-cam operators or you will wake up six hours later with a bad headache)
I can tell you who are pro's around here. The one that don't bash people on the head or banging head against the wall.
Watch what they say an you'll see...watch.
BTW, I'm killing the photography market by working for free. OMG!
Still going huh? Ok, let me clarify my position. When I have used the term elitist I am NOT applying that term to all working pros. My position is not that every credentialed photographer is a snob or an SOB. There is a difference between what you do, how well you do it and the attitude you portray to others. Same is true in all walks of life. I've met and worked next to great photographers who were nice guys. Bad photographers that were nice people. And every other permutation. What I will say is that compared to other professions or even other types of photographers, sports photographers based upon my personal experience tend to be much more full of themselves. I'm not even saying it's 50% of them. It is very much a clique mentality. I recall one discussion over at sportsshooter. One of said snobs was complaining about people on the sidelines and even made a comment about grudgingly accepting the band - not tongue in cheek either. I've had several professional photographers email me privately after reading some of my posts and the comments from some of these snobs and these pros telling me they've given up their membership to sportsshooter because they don't want to be associated with the types of opinions being spouted by members. In the grand scheme it may be only 10% of pro sports photographers that are elitist. But they tend to speak very loudly on forums.
Again, I've met all kinds. And there are some great, helpful pros here and elsewhere. But there are a number that talk down or simply ignore those not in "the club" moreso than any other profession I can think of. How many people mock someone for the "70-200 on a monopod' or come up with derogatory names - GWC for amateurs?
Last year at a football game I met a great photog from the local major daily. We chatted before the game and halftime and he was great. I've worked at a couple events next to a colleague of his. Said colleague always chats with a couple other guys from major papers / AP. But when I've tried to have a friendly conversation with him he either ignores me or dismisses me as soon as possible. And I can assure you I'm not asking him how to use my gear. He is the type of person I'm referring to. That 'fraternity' mentality - everyone "in the fraternity" is his brother. Everyone else is beneath him.
So, the point is - being a professional, credentialed member of the media does not, IMO, make you elitist. But the opinions you express and how you express them regarding those who are not is what leads other people to view you that way.
As another example, one of the reasons I was absent from this particular forum for so long was the attitudes of some of the elitists here. It was sad how some of the attitudes toward me changed instantly the moment the sportsshooter icon was there. I had the same opinions and my photos were the same but with some of the sportsshooter snobs I was "in the club". So my posts were treated differently. I don't have respect for that. Same reason I see back-slapping on some snobs regardless of how much a given post has images which aren't great and some up-and-commers are showing great work but getting no feedback. To be sure, lots of people consistently turn out great work and should be congratulated. But I'll see some not good stuff by people 'in the club' get the atta-boy here while some quality work (not fantastic work but good work) get ignored by non members. Again, just my opinion. Some of these snobs I have respect for THEIR WORK PRODUCT, but less for them personally. And given the emails I've gotten from former sportsshooter members and from people I've referred to come here to learn, this opinion isn't just in my head. So, why come here? Why be a member of sportsshooter? Because I gain by them. And I try and share and help others. Just because there are rotten apples doesn't mean the whole bunch is bad. But the rotten apples do make the experience less enjoyable.
I never criticized you for "simply sticking up for a group of people"...I merely said that if your are not an elitist snob phorographer, then my critiques are not directed towards you.
The vast majority of people reading here don't even know who you are. No one is judging you specifically. Only you can decide for yourself if you are an elitist snob photographer.
Really, no need to blow a gasket over a message forum lol.
Not blowing a gasket, just simply standing my ground. I believe it was you that came after me saying "I thought that everything was about me". Not exactly the nicest thing to sayto someone.
bing..bing..BINGO!
Herd mentality as well. Like the headmaster going after someone and the rest follows. What a farce
john_a_g wrote:
Still going huh? Ok, let me clarify my position. When I have used the term elitist I am NOT applying that term to all working pros. My position is not that every credentialed photographer is a snob or an SOB. There is a difference between what you do, how well you do it and the attitude you portray to others. Same is true in all walks of life. I've met and worked next to great photographers who were nice guys. Bad photographers that were nice people. And every other permutation. What I will say is that compared to other professions or even other types of photographers, sports photographers based upon my personal experience tend to be much more full of themselves. I'm not even saying it's 50% of them. It is very much a clique mentality. I recall one discussion over at sportsshooter. One of said snobs was complaining about people on the sidelines and even made a comment about grudgingly accepting the band - not tongue in cheek either. I've had several professional photographers email me privately after reading some of my posts and the comments from some of these snobs and these pros telling me they've given up their membership to sportsshooter because they don't want to be associated with the types of opinions being spouted by members. In the grand scheme it may be only 10% of pro sports photographers that are elitist. But they tend to speak very loudly on forums.
Again, I've met all kinds. And there are some great, helpful pros here and elsewhere. But there are a number that talk down or simply ignore those not in "the club" moreso than any other profession I can think of. How many people mock someone for the "70-200 on a monopod' or come up with derogatory names - GWC for amateurs?
Last year at a football game I met a great photog from the local major daily. We chatted before the game and halftime and he was great. I've worked at a couple events next to a colleague of his. Said colleague always chats with a couple other guys from major papers / AP. But when I've tried to have a friendly conversation with him he either ignores me or dismisses me as soon as possible. And I can assure you I'm not asking him how to use my gear. He is the type of person I'm referring to. That 'fraternity' mentality - everyone "in the fraternity" is his brother. Everyone else is beneath him.
So, the point is - being a professional, credentialed member of the media does not, IMO, make you elitist. But the opinions you express and how you express them regarding those who are not is what leads other people to view you that way.
As another example, one of the reasons I was absent from this particular forum for so long was the attitudes of some of the elitists here. It was sad how some of the attitudes toward me changed instantly the moment the sportsshooter icon was there. I had the same opinions and my photos were the same but with some of the sportsshooter snobs I was "in the club". So my posts were treated differently. I don't have respect for that. Same reason I see back-slapping on some snobs regardless of how much a given post has images which aren't great and some up-and-commers are showing great work but getting no feedback. To be sure, lots of people consistently turn out great work and should be congratulated. But I'll see some not good stuff by people 'in the club' get the atta-boy here while some quality work (not fantastic work but good work) get ignored by non members. Again, just my opinion. Some of these snobs I have respect for THEIR WORK PRODUCT, but less for them personally. And given the emails I've gotten from former sportsshooter members and from people I've referred to come here to learn, this opinion isn't just in my head. So, why come here? Why be a member of sportsshooter? Because I gain by them. And I try and share and help others. Just because there are rotten apples doesn't mean the whole bunch is bad. But the rotten apples do make the experience less enjoyable....Show more →
Me_XMan wrote:
bing..bing..BINGO!
Herd mentality as well. Like the headmaster going after someone and the rest follows. What a farce
Speaking of herd mentality, what about those who always feel they need to criticize and label pro photographers as "elitists" and "snobs"? Although I don't have any actual statistics, I would have to guess that overall in this forum credentialed photographers as a population are a very small percentage of the total number of members here. Yet, despite that, they do seem to garner a larger number of criticisms and typically from the same group of individuals. As soon as a photographer talks about getting paid a fair wage for a day's work, or offering advice in how to be a professional sports photographer, a "herd" of naysayers jumps in to refute any of the points made.
Elitism works both ways and by definition has nothing to do with whether or not a group of photographers is getting paid or not.
Me_XMAN:
Obviously whatever you're doing and however you choose to conduct your photo activities works for you. Great. However, I fail to see how the content and continued tone of your posts really adds anything of value.
I just keep my mouth shut on what I think about you.
Steve Ickes wrote:
Me_XMAN:
Obviously whatever you're doing and however you choose to conduct your photo activities works for you. Great. However, I fail to see how the content and continued tone of your posts really adds anything of value.
I'm a member of Sports Shooter as well and became so well after I had started participating in FM. Honestly, I never felt as if I was treated differently before or after not by members of the same "club" at least. I had as much interaction and feedback from other members of Sports Shooter before and after my acceptance. I had even emailed and had discussions with SS members through that web site prior to my membership and never experienced any issues.
However, what I have found is that I feel that I am constantly having to defend my position as a credentialed photographer who believes in getting paid for my time. To me that shouldn't be something I need to justify or defend to anyone.
I don't make any excuses for anyone else but I can tell you that as a whole, professional photographers can be blunt and somewhat short at times. But IMO this business doesn't reward the shy and the meek and those who have survived have done so through their own efforts. If you've ever been involved in a post-game photo scrum you know what I'm talking about. You may get lucky and know someone who can get you on a sideline but once you're there its all on you to prove yourself and get the job done and not just once but each and every time you step onto a field.
Steve Ickes wrote:
You may get lucky and know someone who can get you on a sideline but once you're there its all on you to prove yourself and get the job done and not just once but each and every time you step onto a field.
Let's be clear on something Steve. EVERY time I have been on a baseline or sideline or gymnastics floor or any other type of arena it is in a professional capcity - representing the newspaper or my client with the full permission of the entity who controls access. It's comments like your "you may get lucky and know some one" that come across as elitist. Luck has nothing to do with why I am where I am.
And what you may not understand is that while I don't do photography full time, I fully understand and appreciate what it means to be a professional and deliver day in and day out.
So, if you want people to 'respect' your opinions and not label the things you say as elitist, then please refrain from making statements that infer I am on the sidelines only because I'm lucky and know someone. I've NOT made derogatory statements about you and I would appreciate the same respect.
But the honest truth is I don't care HOW a person got where they are - all I care about is how they act when they're there. If the brother of an AD is there taking snaps because of his family relationship but he's being respectful and following the guidelines he has just as much RIGHT (I say right because his presence was specifically approved) as I do even though I'm representing a newspaper and he is not.
But it is nice to be able to get the shot a little easier and great for dealing with the crowd!
