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Archive 2004 · Foil gear thieves. ..!

  
 
jray
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p.3 #1 · Foil gear thieves. ..!


DavidP wrote:

... Here in Texas, you can use your weapon to stop a felony (which this would be) AT NIGHT. Or even to stop a "fleeing felon" AT NIGHT.


OK, you baited me well and I'm hooked. What do you mean by 'AT NIGHT'. Is there something I'm missing? What is so special about Texas' CCW law that specifies 'NIGHT' as different from other times? BTW, I plan to visit Texas soon as kind of a 'roots' trip since I was born in San Antonio at Lackland AFB, and of course I want to take some shots of places I haven't been before (or at least with a camera)

If I had a large portion of my kit with me, I think I'd have to "challenge" the bad guy (with gun drawn), even in daylight. Most thieves like that are unarmed, and will do ANYTHING to avoid a confrontation.

This is where I might disagree with you.

You used a word that is the absolute qualifier here, 'most'. Yes, 'most' covers a lot of territory, but not 'all' of it, and this is where the problem lies IMO.

The odds for 'most' is not really qualifiable, but I would assume that someone who is used to stealing is a bad person to place odds on. Yes, most burglars/muggers stay away from guns due to additional prison time that can be added, but some of them don't think this way, and these are the ones you need to be afraid of. Unfortunately, there is no way to know who they are, and this is why I only consider the use of a deadly weapon when I feel my life, or someone else's, might be in danger. This is also why I carry my handgun concealed. While a holstered gun does make it clear you are serious about protecting yourself and property, it also makes it clear how you plan to do so. This can work against you. IMO you should never reveal to a potential adversary your strengths and weaknesses. Here's an example that almost lost me a girlfriend a few decades back:

I'm driving my classic Corvair Corsa with several 'Bob Fitch' mods (yes, I'm bragging but that was decades ago ) and I pass a biker at a relatively high speed (85mph). A few miles ahead we pull into a roadside market to get something to drink and the biker pulls in behind us. He gets off his bike and starts to get a real attitude with me, then he starts hitting on my 'then' girlfriend and asks why she is with a wimp like me (I actually am a wimp, just a smart one ). At this point she notices that I back off a bit and allow him to be aggressive to some degree. When it's over she get pissed off and asked why I didn't defend her more. I made it clear to her that being aggressive with this guy would only get me beat up and then I would be of no value to her. However, if I play the wimp he would give me little attention which would allow me to find a 2x4 or whatever to beat his head in if need be. In other words, don't ever give up your hand. I'm a pretty good poker player, in both cards and life, and life is just too precious to take chances with whether it be mine or someone else's. Over-active testosterone has been the downfall of many a good man. I try to keep mine under control except when the circumstances dictate otherwise .

I'm pretty sure that I'd be "no-billed" here in Texas, even though I'd be in technical violation of the law.

California has a few laws that would most likely allow me to survive a concealed weapons charge 'one time'.

BTW, for those in the U.S. who might consider carrying a concealed handgun, check www.packing.org to make sure you don't get yourself in trouble, how much trouble you might get into if caught, and if you want to place yourself in such a position in the first place.



Apr 11, 2004 at 05:57 AM
DavidP
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p.3 #2 · Foil gear thieves. ..!


jray wrote:
OK, you baited me well and I'm hooked. What do you mean by 'AT NIGHT'. Is there something I'm missing? What is so special about Texas' CCW law that specifies 'NIGHT' as different from other times?


I'll have to find the exact wording . . . might take a bit, but I just took the course to renew my CCW, so I should have it handy somewhere.

But it's fairly clear that you can shoot to defend yourself (or others) from immediately bodily harm. AND you can shoot to prevent an immediate felony (or a fleeing felon), but only at NIGHT.

I'm not sure why the part about NIGHT is so important that they felt the law needed to address that.



Apr 11, 2004 at 06:54 PM
John Wright
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p.3 #3 · Foil gear thieves. ..!


Having worked at Home Depot for two years (left last year), I can say the Greenlee boxes are probably not the best solution to the security problem. The small box secures with only one padlock on a standard hasp, leaving the lock accessible to any kind of pry tool. The large box, the one mentioned in the original post, is more secure, but would be too large and heavy for the trunk of most cars. When someone purchased one of the large boxes, we had to move them with a forklift.


Apr 11, 2004 at 09:09 PM
jray
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p.3 #4 · Foil gear thieves. ..!


Back in 1987 I owned an electronics franchise (actually two locations). I had an employee who was not working out so I had to let him go. That night at about 2:00am the store was burglarized. I had 100lb+ safe in the back room with ~$1800.00 cash in it, and they just took the whole safe. Gone, goodbye... The only reason I mentioned the employee is because I'm pretty sure he was responsible for the theft, and I like to harp on it a bit since it's still a thorn in my side He had gone through a locksmithing course (as have I) so it wasn't hard to put this together.

The point is, there is no box that will deter someone who has decided to steal your stuff. An armored box is of little use, and might actually end up causing more damage to your vehicle if it needs to be ripped out in order to steal it and its contents. As mentioned earlier in this thread, some people will cause several hundreds of dollars worth of damage to your car just to get loose change.

IMO it's always better to make it look as if there is nothing to steal in the first place. The last thing I want to do is place my gear in a high-tech armored box that gets ripped off along with the gear in it. In addition, if it's bolted in place it's likely to get ripped off in the middle of the night when there is no gear stored inside. If you decide to use such a safe/box, you should make sure to leave it unlocked and open when it's empty.

I want thieves who open my trunk to find nothing to steal, or at least not see it. I should also mention that I never lock the trunk latch inside the car except when parking in a lot. If they have decided to break into your car's interior, there is nothing to keep them from punching the trunk lock if it's locked. Just let them in, but make sure they won't find anything of value to to steal, or leave them a few red herrings as I do just to piss them off a day or so later



Apr 11, 2004 at 11:09 PM
Holartic
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p.3 #5 · Foil gear thieves. ..!


I've done some research on vehicle security:

Basically I found that one of the key elements to keeping a vehicle secure is to make it look like there isn't anything in the car. If you have a car that looks like you live in it, I bet a potential theif would think there would be a fair chance of finding something. If, however, you keep your car just like it was driven off the new car lot, then they might be drawn to more tempting targets which have "bookbags" or "sachels" that look more interesting.

So, for me this means frequent use of my trunk, and I rarely find myself with anything inside the vehicle unless I'm on an extended trip. By the way, I have a Honda Accord.

Firearms are an interesting suggestion. Considering that you might be by yourself the distraction of taking photos opens you up to all kinds of potential unpleasantries since distraction is the root cause of most muggings, assaults and worse. Pepper spray is perhaps an excellent less than lethal suggestion though it could pose trouble for airline travel. Perhaps the best alternative is to travel with an observant friend or make a conscious effort to take careful note of your surroundings periodically as you photograph.

Everyone has provided alot of useful suggestions, this has been an interesting thread. Thanks everyone for the insight.



Apr 12, 2004 at 12:43 PM
jray
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p.3 #6 · Foil gear thieves. ..!


Holartic wrote:

... I found that one of the key elements to keeping a vehicle secure is to make it look like there isn't anything in the car.


This 'is' the key element IMO. Out of sight, out of mind. A simple concept, but quite effective in most cases.

If you have a car that looks like you live in it, I bet a potential thief would think there would be a fair chance of finding something. If, however, you keep your car just like it was driven off the new car lot, then they might be drawn to more tempting targets which have "bookbags" or "sachels" that look more interesting.

Yes, but by the same token if they were looking for a car to steal, why not steal the nicest, cleanest, car you can? This is why I only drive my 87' Accord when parking in out of the way places. Who would want it? I also leave a bit of junk food crap in the car along with a few other non-valuable items to mess it up a bit. I always have a McDonald's, Burger King bag, etc. I use for garbage that takes residence in the front in plain sight. I also move the contents of the glove-box and leave it wide open for inspection. I still wonder if this is a good idea since although it shows a thief you have nothing in the glove-box, it also makes it clear you are showing them this. They might spend more time searching your car under such circumstances. I can't really qualify this one


So, for me this means frequent use of my trunk, and I rarely find myself with anything inside the vehicle unless I'm on an extended trip. By the way, I have a Honda Accord.

The trunk helps, but a person who steals stuff from cars on a regular basis would never let a trunk go uninspected, and they wouldn't let the fact that a car has nothing in the front keep them from breaking in either. Typically such people break into as many cars as possible in as short a time as possible to get as much of your stuff as possible. I rely on this behavior to help protect 'my' stuff to some degree.

When I say 'out of sight, out of mind', it doesn't just refer to things you can't see from outside the car, I'm also referring to things that can't be seen even if the thief feels they have given the vehicle a thorough inspection.

Thieves have a tendency to spend as little time as possible in a single vehicle, and I'm counting on this to help keep my stuff safe. This is also why I leave a few red herrings in the trunk. I want them to think they've hit pay-dirt and take off.

Firearms are an interesting suggestion. Considering that you might be by yourself the distraction of taking photos opens you up to all kinds of potential unpleasantries since distraction is the root cause of most muggings, assaults and worse.

Like I said earlier, the last thing I want to do is start a gun thread, but there are times when it's the only solution to insure your protection. I carry a handgun to protect myself from animals just as much as I do from that strange person that might pop out of nowhere.

Pepper spray is perhaps an excellent less than lethal suggestion though it could pose trouble for airline travel.

This is always my first line of defense and is also why I carry two types. There are times when it's actually more effective than a gun could ever be. One thing I know for sure, bears get sprayed with pepper spray, period. Unless you have something I haven't seen before, never pull a handgun on a bear. In all likelihood, all you'll do is piss them off. You don't want this, trust me As for use on the human animal, I only carry Sabre brand. The reason is simple. It's a mix of CS tear-gas (mace) and pepper spray. Although mace is a effective, it takes a bit of time for it to have an effect. It also has little effect on most animals. It doesn't always work on people either. If they are on PCP or some other such drug it might have no effect at all. On the other hand, pepper spray usually works on anything first time every time, but the effects can start wearing off after a few minutes. Sufficient tearing will reduce the effects of pepper spray, but usually have little effect on mace. The pepper spray is effective immediately, and by the time it starts wearing off, the mace has taken effect. A good mix actually. Make sure you check you state laws in regards to the use of pepper spray or mace. Before pepper spray was available in California, I used to have a mace license (I actually still have it). Now neither requires a license.

Perhaps the best alternative is to travel with an observant friend or make a conscious effort to take careful note of your surroundings periodically as you photograph.

This is always best if possible, besides it's nice to have someone to share the experience with. Unfortunately when I mention I plan to get up a 3:00 or 4:00am in order to travel to a destination where I'll set up a small vertical tent and sit there all day waiting for birds to fly/swim by, I don't usually get many takers It's a sickness I guess...



Apr 13, 2004 at 05:04 AM
Jim Cowsert
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p.3 #7 · Foil gear thieves. ..!


Don't Mess With Texas:
Texas Penal Code § 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property


A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under
Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is
immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal
mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime
from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any
other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a
substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

§ 9.41. Protection of One's Own Property


(a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when
he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or
fraud against the actor.





Apr 13, 2004 at 07:30 AM
Holartic
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p.3 #8 · Foil gear thieves. ..!


Those are some great points JRay.

Personally I have a Florida and Alabama Permit, and all I need to do is fill out the paperwork and I will have Utah too.

Firearms make sense in those unthinkable situtuations where you "weren't paying attention." I have to make myself practice every two months. Not many people are interested in going with me, and shooting is a perishable skill. If I didn't practice every two months and jump on classes that come up in my area, I would be hesitant to consider a firearm.

Ya'll seem like an educated bunch of people so I know this doens't apply to you, but I jump at the chance to teach anyone I meet who shows an interest firearms but appears Hollywood educated.

When I was in Germany, I had what I thought was a neat little system to help prevent theft. I left some of my camera gear at my friends place and took just what I absoutely needed which was an ELAN IIE, 550EX flash and a 28-135 IS, an OIympus Stylus Epic with a 35 2.8 lens, and a small bogen tripod. If I took anything more it would have been hard to enjoy the trip, not to meantion my friends would probably loose patience with me.

I carried this combo minus the tripod, in a Kinesis camera case and belt. It held the camera, lens and flash easily. Kinda bulky, but I wore it in front to further preven theft. When I knew I wouldn't be shooting I took the belt and camera off and stuffed it into my bookbag that which also housed my tripod, rain jacket and other stuff. Since backpacks blended in so well in Europe I think it was better than leaving your gear lying around. And yes, taking photos was frequently scary because I knew while I was composing the photo that I wasn't exactly paying attention. Fortunately, so they say, Europe is generally safer than the USA at least in terms of bodily injury.

By the way, I took about half of my photos with the Olympus and interestingly enough I got as many keepers from that camera as I did from the SLR rig.

I saw a catalogue that had something callled an impact Kermabit, which is a funny looking piece of plastic and with little training is suposed to be quite effective. I have considered getting something like that with the thought that it would probably be ok for airline travel.

Keep up the great work with this thread! It has been informative and interesting.



Apr 13, 2004 at 08:47 AM
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