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ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)

  
 
carstenw
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p.304 #1 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I suppose nothing is truly magic, but at least the ability of sharpening in LAB space seems promising because it leaves the colour saturation alone, and thus there is more scope for careful tuning of the two separately. Often, there is no need, since I boost the saturation anyway, but sometimes the normal procedure is too heavy.


Apr 03, 2011 at 04:53 PM
Mast3rChi3f
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p.304 #2 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Lot of shots in a short time. Well done everyone.

21mm
















85mm

















Apr 03, 2011 at 06:14 PM
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p.304 #3 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Dear friends. I have to write this letter to all of you who are constant authors of the thread providing so great images that prove your outstanding photo skills. I'm pleasantly shocked and want to say thank you. You inspire people to perfect their photo vision.

I’m a newbie to FM community though I’ve been visiting the site for years. I even decided to register on the forum to post this message. So please be a little bit more delicate to me :)) And I want to ask you a few questions.

The main is this. Are you sure that such high art and visual level of your images is due to zeiss lenses only? Technical side is due to zeiss no brain but it’s the second thing at least for me when I decide to like or not to like a picture. And composition, moment, mood, character of a picture weights much more (at least for me) even separately. And if I have technically perfect images with good bokeh, low level of noise, excellent sharpness and colors but lack of sense or meaning (composition and so on) I doubt I choose it in favor of the “bad” one with good composition and adequate sharpness. And this thread surely contains both types of pictures. So is a zeiss lens the key? Is a zeiss lens indispensable to get your image level? Is it a philosophy or just an appropriate tool? Are there any non-zeiss tools?

Now let’s discuss the technical side of the issue. I began to search internet and forums because I wanted to improve my images quality and to try great OOF style in taking cityscapes travel pictures. So I thought I needed primes that were sharp even at f/2.8 or so. That’s why I found this amazing thread. Recently I have decided to renew my lens line-up. I kept only EF 24-70/2.8. All my life I used zooms (17-40 and 70-200/4 as well) and never had primes. And considering of ZE primes I’m more afraid of fixed focal length than lack of AF. So if you travel over Europe smth like Rome, Barcelona, London what lenses would you take: so appreciated ZE primes or more convenient zooms? What is more important: to take a technically perfect picture or not to loose 2 more great sense but zeissless style images? Note as for me I’m not afraid of post processing and consider color differences could be neglected in PP. So what makes you happier: opportunity to take the best image or not to loose other good ones?

One more thing about zeiss primes vs L zooms considering scapes. What is better: to crop an image heavily taken with a prime or to frame a scene zooming tightly without cropping?

And the last part :)) It’s much simplier. What set to choose and why (it’s more important)? Please note this summer I’m going to London and Paris each for a week. So I need your advice.
1) TS-E 24 II/ZE21 + 35 (ZE/EF) + 70-200/4 IS
2) EF 24-70 + MP100/EF135L
3) TS-E 24 II/ZE21 + 35/50 (ZE/EF) + MP100/EF135L
I need lenses for indoor shooting (churches, museums and so on), long tele for tight scapes, and of course wides. I don’t hesitate to use a tripod if it’s acceptable. I generally shoot scapes and their details. I don’t shoot people at all and almost never actions, I’m not interested in street photography. I have 5Dmk1.

Best regards, Alex.

edit1: some minor word editing



Apr 04, 2011 at 05:33 AM
Almass
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p.304 #4 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Are you sure that such high art and visual level of your images is due to zeiss lenses only?

Short answer: No

Long...ish answer:

1- Any photographer who goes out of his way and does not stick with the same lens make as his camera is an Involved Photographer.

2- MF v AF as well as Prime v Zoom does change the game in the sense that you have to compose and focus with your brain and feet v Couch Photographer + Zoom.

3- Lenses have souls, It is up to you to make them come alive...

4- And wait till you try the Leica lenses.....then your world will loop upside down.

N.B. This does not negate in any way the value of the other branded lenses where some are arguably at par or better than Zeiss....dunno if they are better than Leica though

And welcome to FM.



Apr 04, 2011 at 06:54 AM
H.Lux
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p.304 #5 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I highly recommend to you the Leica R lenses thread, too. Zeiss and Leica lenses have their own character (drawing style). You will find out, which ones fit best to your photography. I usually go out with the, by many people not as the best regarded, 35 Summicron, 90 Summicron and 28/2.8 Zeiss. Canon lenses may perform, but you have at least to strongly tune the colors in Lightroom or such.

Cheers Stefan



Apr 04, 2011 at 07:40 AM
fracas
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p.304 #6 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


AlexDROP wrote:
1) Are you sure that such high art and visual level of your images is due to zeiss lenses only?

2) considering of ZE primes I’m more afraid of fixed focal length than lack of AF. So if you travel over Europe smth like Rome, Barcelona, London what lenses would you take: so appreciated ZE primes or more convenient zooms?

3) What is better: to crop an image heavily taken with a prime or to frame a scene zooming tightly without cropping?

4) ]What set to choose and why:
a) TS-E 24 II/ZE21 + 35 (ZE/EF) + 70-200/4 IS
b) EF 24-70 + MP100/EF135L
c)) TS-E
...Show more

Hi Alex,
I summed up your questions (I beg your pardon if I skipped some important part) and give you my humble answers:
1) No, it is not only Zeiss ... but CZ helps
2) Zeiss MF helps me to have better images, together with fixed focal lenght: MF is very precise and easy to use on Zeiss (not the same on Canon), distance scale is key to control DOF, ...
Moreover you don't need to cover every focal lenght to get great images... I generally walk with ZE21, ZE35/2 and canon 70-200 f/4 (on a 5DmkII) and I never missed a focal lenght
3) With primes your way of shooting changes with respect to have only zooms: generally I walk back and forth a lot to frame well my subject.
4) IMHO 24 and 35 are too close ... so, as regard to wideangles and normal lenses, I would choose one of these pairs
- ZE21 and ZE35
- TSE24 and ZE50
- ZE21 and ZE50

Cheers, francesco








Apr 04, 2011 at 08:08 AM
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p.304 #7 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Francesco: thanks for such detailed reply, it's very appreicated.

Other opinions if any :wink



Apr 04, 2011 at 08:18 AM
AhamB
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p.304 #8 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


carstenw wrote:
The discussion about sharpening in LAB space has me curious. I think that is in the M8/M9 thread. It has lots of potential.


Hm? The discussion I linked to was in the Z* thread. Maybe a similar discussion was held in the M8/M9 thread which I didn't follow...

The thing I noticed in denoir's comparisons is that with sharpening in RGB mode particular colours were boosted in saturation quite a lot: the green of tree looked much more yellow and in the night shot (last one) the sky looked more purple than blue in the RGB-sharpened one. I sharpen in LAB mode as a rule now, since I've known this.



Apr 04, 2011 at 08:50 AM
cyra
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p.304 #9 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


strastwuj padrug (or whatever transcription works in english ) ,
welcom to the forum! ( I am a newby to, I am also a fan of Russia, spent many weeks in the Far East...).

I don't think you need to be afraid of loosing an oportunity by using a prime instead of a zoom. You very rarely need the in between focal lengths, and you can still always crop.

a) TS-E 24 II/ZE21 + 35 (ZE/EF) + 70-200/4 IS
b) EF 24-70 + MP100/EF135L
c)) TS-E 24 II/ZE21 + 35/50 (ZE/EF) + MP100/EF135L

No one can really tell you, it depends which focal lengths you prefer for shooting what you shoot. Is 24mm enough for you, or do you rather want to go wider? Is 100 enough for you, or do you want the extra reach of 200mm.

I'd say ZE 21 + ZE 35 + 70-200
or TSE 24/ZE 21 + 50 + 100 MP
b) might be an option to try your first Zeiss and see whether you can live without the 70-200. (I have a 80-200 Nikon 2,8 and can live with out it no problem.)
I have ZF 25/50/85/100 now, and since I had my second ZF lens, have not used a zoom again, and only will use them for fast moving objects, if I really "need" the shots, or for bird shots with long lenses.
Buy the focal length you use most first and see how you like it. And think about how many lenses you want to own/can afford in total. A two lens set will be different than a 3 or 4 or 5 lens set. And take into account, that Zeiss lenses are addictive . You always want more

Since I have the primes, I noticed that I take pictures differently. I actually rarely use all 4 lenses I have. I use one, and after some time (sometimes hours) I change the lens and do some more with a different focal length. Using a prime makes you much more creative to use what you have, and often you start to look for different motives and different perspectives and angles you can do with just that lens. Usually you don't change every 5 minutes.
Using primes certainly makes me a better photographer than I was while doing "point and shoot" with a zoom. Zooms make you lazy...
I don't know who said that, but I find it certainly valid: "on most photographies there is to much on it." I think it is a zoom-user thing, that people tend to get "everything" on it. With a prime you will rather look how to catch the "soul" of the object with the focal lenght you have got. Look at the ship shot from akul, one page back. With a zoom, one would probabely have gone to the widest setting. Using the 100mm (was it maybe already on the camera?) is what gives the shot it's uniqueness. In that way being "restricted" to certain focal lengths actually makes your mind work on the possible compositions more and lets you come up with better solutions very often, then the "standard" zoom look. (Which does not mean you can't be creative with a zoom, but a prime kind of forces you to do it.)
Primes make you think about the composition more and also about the use of aperture and DoF. Focussing manually forces you a bit more to think about where to put your focus.

for city I could even live with a 50 only (for a while )
ZF 50 MP/f4

this image could just as well have been done with the 50mm. There is still the foot-zoom.
85 @4


they are not great images, not all images shot with a Zeiss are. But it is more fun to take them with a Zeiss



Apr 04, 2011 at 10:05 AM
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p.304 #10 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


cyra: hello my friend (zdravstvuj drug) - I assume you were intended to say this with the transcription written above but it occured like this - hey chick (or baby). Actually I'm a male so laughed a lot :))
I consider 3 lenses set with addition of a close-up filter or an ext tube if needed. I like to travel light enough to be happy to take pictures with equipment I carry around all day. And I don't want to blame myself and consider being in a gym. So your idea is using primes leads to more creativity, right? I suppose I could agree in 4/5 share in favor of your statement :))



Apr 04, 2011 at 12:05 PM
 


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pingflood
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p.304 #11 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Spring is here.







And so is fog.








Apr 04, 2011 at 01:28 PM
carstenw
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p.304 #12 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Hello Alex, and welcome! I won't try my Google Russian skills Here are my answers, others may disagree here and there:

Main thing) No, nothing is due *only* to the Zeiss lenses. They are one ingredient, and they sometimes add a little, and in other situations more. If using the wrong lens in the wrong way, it is also possible to get worse results. Some learning is required with lenses like these.

Travel kit: Zeiss on Canon, I would recommend something like 21, 50MP, 100MP, or 21, 35/2, 85/1.4. If you have more space, you could swap the 50 for 35/2 and 85/1.4. If you prefer a less clinical look (not that the 50MP is sooo clinical), you could swap it for the 50/1.4, but there are some limitations on its strengths, so you would need to spend some time learning it. The 21 is too wide, really, but the 25/28 lenses have some compromises, whereas the 21 is brilliant, so I still recommend it over the others.

About losing photos due to using primes: how often have you lost a photo due to having the wrong lens on the camera? I also think this way, but in reality, I have lost maybe 5-10 important shots in my life like that. If you are doing some street photography, then you could leave a 35 or 50 on the camera by default, and only swap it out for individual shots requiring something else.

About zooms vs. primes: In my opinion, the flexibility of zooms is vastly overrated for most uses. People who don't want to move around too much. In reality, I find more creative and often better solutions. If cropping is needed, then usually just a bit, not a lot.

About which kit: I am not a fan of zooms, so I would recommend kit 3. The TS-E 24 II might be a good alternative for the 21, not quite as wide, and with added flexibility with tilt/shift. I would not take an EF 35 or 50, but a ZE, probably the 35/2 or 50MP. I would also prefer the 100MP. I find 135 too long for travel, and the macro ability is nice to have.

In summary, there are good and bad lenses, where we each define our own "good" and "bad". Zeiss and Leica lenses are for me just noticeably better for some things, mainly boke and rendering style. I could do photography without them, and still maintain a high level, but I would be a little less happy, and my photos would sometimes be less nice.



Apr 04, 2011 at 01:54 PM
cyra
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p.304 #13 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


AlexDROP wrote:
cyra: hello my friend (zdravstvuj drug) - I assume you were intended to say this with the transcription written above but it occured like this - hey chick (or baby). Actually I'm a male so laughed a lot ))


hey baby! I am happy to have entertained you - when it goes across three languages by transcribing without the correct alphabet, you end up with chicken soup and embarressment in the end. (I thought padruga is female and padrug male? but my russian lessons are some days ago now...)

I consider 3 lenses set with addition of a close-up filter or an ext tube if needed. I like to travel light enough to be happy to take pictures with equipment I carry around all day. And I don't want to blame myself and consider being in a gym. So your idea is using primes leads to more creativity, right? I suppose I could agree in 4/5 share in favor of your statement )

it at least does with me. But my lenses are fairly new. That might add to the attraction.
Most people will tell you the "best" 3-lenses set consists of 21/35/100, but the 21 is rather on the bulky and heavy side.
I have the 25 instead, which is the lightest, but also very sharp, although it is considered not as good as the mighty 21, and at this point I would wait until the new version (probabely f2,0) comes out. 25 matches well with 50 and 100. I was sometimes out just with the 25 and 85, which is a good match too.

I don't know whether anyone has tried to put a converter on a 100 yet. If you have the 100 you might not need a close-up filter at all, if you are not into bugs and really small stuff.



Apr 04, 2011 at 02:03 PM
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p.304 #14 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Carsten: some kind eyeopener style post - honest, detailed, open-minded.


Apr 04, 2011 at 02:10 PM
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p.304 #15 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


cyra: Z*25 doesn't have EF mount as it has Nikon mount so no choice for me cuz of 5D. I also consider ts-e 24 and ZE21, any thoughts?
OOT: padruga (podruga is right) is female so you remember it clearly. it's almost like man and woman in english - drug and podruga. sorry for bothering you with complicated russian ))) anyway it's much easier than chinese.



Apr 04, 2011 at 02:28 PM
cyra
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p.304 #16 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


right, it doesn't exist with Canon mount. Don't know the Ts-e 24. There is many more Canon guys here then people shooting on Nikon.

my russian these days shrunk to a faded memory of some similar sounding mash, as you gather...shouldn't bother you with it any more, it just leads to more embaressment



Apr 04, 2011 at 03:32 PM
kiddik
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p.304 #17 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


AlexDROP, I've shot some side-by-side comparisons with the ZE21 vs. Canon 24mm TS-E II, and the Canon definitely has ridicilous performance, but it has a lot less "WOW" factor than the Zeiss, the Zeiss is much richer in colours & pop, in my opinion. The extreme wide-open vignette in ZE21 acts in it's favour as far as I'm concerned, whereas the tilt-shift has almost no vignette. But regardless of their optical performances, one thing many people leave out while comparing these two - is the sheer size of the 24 Tilt-Shift, it is enormous! I wouldn't want to travel with it unless it were the only lens in the bag, personally.

Anyway, if you're interested, I happen to have a quickie wide-open comparison of [email protected] vs TS-E [email protected], open these in seperate tabs and flip between:

Zeiss 21 vs. Canon 24 TS-E II: Canon
Zeiss 21 vs. Canon 24 TS-E II: Zeiss



Apr 04, 2011 at 03:52 PM
rscheffler
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p.304 #18 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


carstenw wrote:
I suppose nothing is truly magic, but at least the ability of sharpening in LAB space seems promising because it leaves the colour saturation alone, and thus there is more scope for careful tuning of the two separately. Often, there is no need, since I boost the saturation anyway, but sometimes the normal procedure is too heavy.


Carsten, you can control the effects of sharpening on color in RGB space by applying 'Fade' immediately after sharpening and selecting Luminosity from the options. On the Mac system Fade is Command + Shift + F. I don't remember off hand where it's located in the menus...

You can also apply Fade after numerous types of modifications, such as Curves, Levels, etc. Like sharpening, curves and levels change the contrast of the image and as a result also the color saturation. Applying Fade>Luminosity restricts the curves, levels, sharpening, etc. to change only the luminance values (brightness). You'll notice that there are a number of other options for fade, such as hue, saturation, color, etc. As an example, you might have noticed that if you use the Hue/Saturation adjustment on an image, say changing hues, that it can affect the luminosity of the image. If you apply Fade>Hue, it will restrict the change to only the hue values. Hopefully this makes sense.

Ron

M9 & Zeiss 50 Planar







Apr 04, 2011 at 04:01 PM
rscheffler
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p.304 #19 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Alex:

I just did a few weeks in Germany and Switzerland. I find I'm comfortable with wide angle prime lenses and a telephoto zoom. My kit included 21, 35, 50 and 70-200 f/4L IS. The prime lenses were Zeiss on an M9 and the zoom on a 1DIV. I used to use the Canon 16-35 as my 'normal' lens but have never been especially happy with it. The prime wide angle lenses are significantly better in terms of sharpness and considering the relatively high MP of the M9, I will crop an image as needed, therefore I don't feel like I'm missing the flexibility of the zoom. It will depend on your style, but for me I found I was using 21-50mm about 70% of the time (and of those, mostly the 35 50 - I don't think the two are too closely spaced), with the rest being the 70-200. I even used the it for some church interiors @ ISO 3200 1/40 f/4 hand held and the IS was extremely valuable. I couldn't imagine going on a trip without a longer lens.

Had I not gone the M9 route I would have purchased the Zeiss 21 and probably a 5DII based on the images presented in this thread, but I also wanted something much smaller, preferably full frame, and the M9 won out in the end.

Ron

M9 ZM21 f/2.8 version (some vignette added in post to suit my GF's preference, also fixed the blown out sky around the sun, removed numerous jet trails, etc...)








Apr 04, 2011 at 04:20 PM
U.C.
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p.304 #20 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


rscheffler wrote:
M9 ZM21 f/2.8 version (some vignette added in post to suit my GF's preference, also fixed the blown out sky around the sun, removed numerous jet trails, etc...)

http://ronscheffler.com/samples/fmm9/20110311/20110311_1037.jpg

One of the best pictures I've seen for a while!



Apr 04, 2011 at 05:07 PM
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