This topic is in the 2009 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2009Jeff Ascough and 1D4
p.4 #1Jeff Ascough and 1D4
No doubt the D3s is great, but to compare output from one camera with another, you must equalize resolution and workflow (esp. noise reduction) before you can say anything about relative image quality. If I read Jeff's blog post correctly, all noise reduction was disabled in DPP; if that's the case, then these are not good examples from which to make a comparison yet.
Nov 25, 2009 at 08:48 AM
p.4 #2Jeff Ascough and 1D4
Funny how canon has their top of the line Action/sports camera beta tested by a pro wedding photog. Why not a pro sports photog ? makes me go hmmmm.
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:25 AM
p.4 #3Jeff Ascough and 1D4
You think he's the only photographer testing this camera?
And you think this is a sports-only camera?
Nah.
And you think this is a sports-only camera?
Nah.
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:28 AM
p.4 #4Jeff Ascough and 1D4
FretNoMore wrote:
You think he's the only photographer testing this camera?
And you think this is a sports-only camera?
Nah.
A wedding shoot is hardly indicative of a camera's predictive (AI Servo) focus prowess. Action sports is. Where are the pro sport shooters pics ? Could it be Canon is afraid of a negative review prior to release ? Does Canon want us to drop 5 grand on a camera and take their word it's the best predictive AF camera ever ?
You think he's the only photographer testing this camera?
And you think this is a sports-only camera?
Nah.
A wedding shoot is hardly indicative of a camera's predictive (AI Servo) focus prowess. Action sports is. Where are the pro sport shooters pics ? Could it be Canon is afraid of a negative review prior to release ? Does Canon want us to drop 5 grand on a camera and take their word it's the best predictive AF camera ever ?
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:33 AM
p.4 #5Jeff Ascough and 1D4
He just happened to be first to publish, who knows how the other test photographers' NDAs are worded. I think it's actually a bit surprising he has published pictures from a pre-production camera at all, given Canon has tried to stop this from happening. Maybe he shouldn't have.
It's not automatically a sign of an evil conspiracy by Canon or a sign there's something seriously wrong with this camera.
I very much want to see sports pictures too, but have some patience, it's still maybe a month to go.
It's not automatically a sign of an evil conspiracy by Canon or a sign there's something seriously wrong with this camera.
I very much want to see sports pictures too, but have some patience, it's still maybe a month to go.
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:38 AM
p.4 #6Jeff Ascough and 1D4
FretNoMore wrote:
It's not automatically a sign of an evil conspiracy by Canon or a sign there's something seriously wrong with this camera.
I know, but after the 1D3 (I have a 1Ds3) one needs to be careful.
It's not automatically a sign of an evil conspiracy by Canon or a sign there's something seriously wrong with this camera.
I know, but after the 1D3 (I have a 1Ds3) one needs to be careful.
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:44 AM
p.4 #7Jeff Ascough and 1D4
Dawei Ye wrote:
Can you spell noise reduction?
all the reviewers seem to like posting images with heavy NR than waxing lyrical about IQ. Only one review site likes to just post noise crops without any NR...that is TDP. Not surprisingly the cameras look terrible even at ISO 100
In addition, from this link:
"Nikon clips the black end of the spectrum well before zero signal, thereby distorting the noise spectrum in deepest shadows. If the noise distribution were clipped at its centroid, then a correction factor could be applied to infer the width of the noise. However an examination of the histogram of the blackframe noise distribution at ISO 200 shows that the blackpoint is set at the point where 5% of pixels have this value or more; the 95% of the pixels to the left (with lower value) are clipped to this 5% point."
Can you spell noise reduction?
all the reviewers seem to like posting images with heavy NR than waxing lyrical about IQ. Only one review site likes to just post noise crops without any NR...that is TDP. Not surprisingly the cameras look terrible even at ISO 100In addition, from this link:
"Nikon clips the black end of the spectrum well before zero signal, thereby distorting the noise spectrum in deepest shadows. If the noise distribution were clipped at its centroid, then a correction factor could be applied to infer the width of the noise. However an examination of the histogram of the blackframe noise distribution at ISO 200 shows that the blackpoint is set at the point where 5% of pixels have this value or more; the 95% of the pixels to the left (with lower value) are clipped to this 5% point."
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:46 AM
p.4 #8Jeff Ascough and 1D4
one needs to be careful
Sure, I have a lemon 1D III so I can relate, it's just that I prefer to have some facts before judging.
We really know next to nothing yet, only hearsay and guesswork really.
Sure, I have a lemon 1D III so I can relate, it's just that I prefer to have some facts before judging.
We really know next to nothing yet, only hearsay and guesswork really.
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:48 AM
p.4 #9Jeff Ascough and 1D4
FretNoMore wrote:
Sure, I have a lemon 1D III so I can relate, it's just that I prefer to have some facts before judging.
We really know next to nothing yet, only hearsay and guesswork really.
I'm on a pre-order list. I hope something definitive comes out (reviews) prior to shipping, otherwise I may pass on my spot.
Earlier quote
one needs to be carefulWe really know next to nothing yet, only hearsay and guesswork really.
I'm on a pre-order list. I hope something definitive comes out (reviews) prior to shipping, otherwise I may pass on my spot.
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:53 AM
p.4 #11Jeff Ascough and 1D4
Same here, I'm on two lists and close to the top on both, so I'm also very much interested in reviews before handing over any money.
Nov 25, 2009 at 09:55 AM
p.4 #12Jeff Ascough and 1D4
Dawei Ye wrote:
Take for example, this image shot by Rob Galbraith.
12800 D3s
That, in my book is a clean image. Look at the blacks!!!Can you spell noise reduction? all the reviewers seem to like posting images with heavy NR than waxing lyrical about IQ. Only one review site likes to just post noise crops without any NR...that is TDP. Not surprisingly the cameras look terrible even at ISO 100
If you look carefully at the included data, Rob Galbraith specifically states that there is no post-production NR going on here. Besides the standard in camera NR, nothing more has been done to the image.
tonyhart wrote
I can't help but think that, while I'm a big Jeff Ascough fan and a Canon user who loves his 5DII, these images - specifically in terms of high-ISO performance - don't hold a candle to what I've seen from the D3s.Take for example, this image shot by Rob Galbraith.
12800 D3s
That, in my book is a clean image. Look at the blacks!!!
all the reviewers seem to like posting images with heavy NR than waxing lyrical about IQ. Only one review site likes to just post noise crops without any NR...that is TDP. Not surprisingly the cameras look terrible even at ISO 100If you look carefully at the included data, Rob Galbraith specifically states that there is no post-production NR going on here. Besides the standard in camera NR, nothing more has been done to the image.
Nov 25, 2009 at 11:38 AM
p.4 #13Jeff Ascough and 1D4
jeff ascough said in reply ...
Oh boy - this is something that I have to live with all of the time when it comes to new Canon cameras.
Just to set the record straight. I have openly criticised Canon products in the past. If you do a search, look on the Canon Europe (CPN) website, etc you will see I am critical of many aspects of certain cameras. When I was at the launch of the 7D in France, I immediately made the point to the Canon designers that the AV/TV/M function dial should be locked - it wasn't. I made the same comments on the release of the 5DMKII. I also pointed out that away from the center focusing point on the 5DII, the rest of the points were a lot poorer. I was also not happy with the lack of dual cards. This is all stuff that people will see if they can be bothered to look.
As an Ambassador it is part of my remit to supply feedback - good and bad to Canon. They trust my opinion and the opinions of the other Ambassadors as we are all respected professional photographers. Also as an Ambassador I am allowed to comment - good and bad about their gear in public. We have no gagging orders or instructions from the top. Think about it for a minute, if I think a camera is crap but I say it is fantastic, then don't you think everyone will find out once they buy the camera? Then my reputation is down the toilet.
I was speaking with Canon this morning and I was asked what I genuinely thought of the camera - was there anything that needed improving. I hand on heart couldn't find any issues. I expected some banding at high iso, but it wasn't there; I expected to have difficulty focusing in really low light - but I didn't. I am a genuine fan of this camera.
Hope that sets the record straight
Oh boy - this is something that I have to live with all of the time when it comes to new Canon cameras.
Just to set the record straight. I have openly criticised Canon products in the past. If you do a search, look on the Canon Europe (CPN) website, etc you will see I am critical of many aspects of certain cameras. When I was at the launch of the 7D in France, I immediately made the point to the Canon designers that the AV/TV/M function dial should be locked - it wasn't. I made the same comments on the release of the 5DMKII. I also pointed out that away from the center focusing point on the 5DII, the rest of the points were a lot poorer. I was also not happy with the lack of dual cards. This is all stuff that people will see if they can be bothered to look.
As an Ambassador it is part of my remit to supply feedback - good and bad to Canon. They trust my opinion and the opinions of the other Ambassadors as we are all respected professional photographers. Also as an Ambassador I am allowed to comment - good and bad about their gear in public. We have no gagging orders or instructions from the top. Think about it for a minute, if I think a camera is crap but I say it is fantastic, then don't you think everyone will find out once they buy the camera? Then my reputation is down the toilet.
I was speaking with Canon this morning and I was asked what I genuinely thought of the camera - was there anything that needed improving. I hand on heart couldn't find any issues. I expected some banding at high iso, but it wasn't there; I expected to have difficulty focusing in really low light - but I didn't. I am a genuine fan of this camera.
Hope that sets the record straight
Nov 25, 2009 at 12:41 PM
p.4 #14Jeff Ascough and 1D4
Interesting 
jeff ascough said...
Just for the record, Nikon approached me in June 2008 about using their gear. I took a D3 on loan shot two weddings with it, and sent it back; I didn't like the skin tones. At high iso they looked artificial and digital. Now in the UK we have very pale, pasty, grey skin - something which Nikon didn't flatter.
To get the skin tones looking good took me a lot of time in post processing, and I wasn't alone. I know of three other world class photographers that switched to Nikon and then spent hours struggling to get the skin tones looking good. Once they got them right, they were happy. As I understand it Canon use a different method of onboard NR to Nikon, which gives Nikon the edge in terms of actual noise but at the expense of skin tone at high iso.
jeff ascough said...
Just for the record, Nikon approached me in June 2008 about using their gear. I took a D3 on loan shot two weddings with it, and sent it back; I didn't like the skin tones. At high iso they looked artificial and digital. Now in the UK we have very pale, pasty, grey skin - something which Nikon didn't flatter.
To get the skin tones looking good took me a lot of time in post processing, and I wasn't alone. I know of three other world class photographers that switched to Nikon and then spent hours struggling to get the skin tones looking good. Once they got them right, they were happy. As I understand it Canon use a different method of onboard NR to Nikon, which gives Nikon the edge in terms of actual noise but at the expense of skin tone at high iso.
Nov 25, 2009 at 12:53 PM
p.4 #15Jeff Ascough and 1D4
Jonesy wrote:
jeff ascough said in reply ...
Oh boy - this is something that I have to live with all of the time when it comes to new Canon cameras.
Just to set the record straight. I have openly criticised Canon products in the past. If you do a search, look on the Canon Europe (CPN) website, etc you will see I am critical of many aspects of certain cameras. When I was at the launch of the 7D in France, I immediately made the point to the Canon designers that the AV/TV/M function dial should be locked - it wasn't. I...Show more →
I have a different take on Canon ambassadors/explorers like Jeff and Arthur Morris. I think they've got more to lose credibility wise then the independents when it comes to commenting on new products from their own companies. It appears he feels the same way.
jeff ascough said in reply ...
Oh boy - this is something that I have to live with all of the time when it comes to new Canon cameras.
Just to set the record straight. I have openly criticised Canon products in the past. If you do a search, look on the Canon Europe (CPN) website, etc you will see I am critical of many aspects of certain cameras. When I was at the launch of the 7D in France, I immediately made the point to the Canon designers that the AV/TV/M function dial should be locked - it wasn't. I...Show more →
I have a different take on Canon ambassadors/explorers like Jeff and Arthur Morris. I think they've got more to lose credibility wise then the independents when it comes to commenting on new products from their own companies. It appears he feels the same way.
Nov 25, 2009 at 05:33 PM
p.4 #16Jeff Ascough and 1D4
ISO 1600 looks decent. I'm still not buying one in the first round.
EBH
EBH
Nov 25, 2009 at 06:37 PM
p.4 #17Jeff Ascough and 1D4
tonyhart wrote:
If you look carefully at the included data, Rob Galbraith specifically states that there is no post-production NR going on here. Besides the standard in camera NR, nothing more has been done to the image.
I think you miss the point - That is the problem though
Haven't you noticed camera NR is getting more and more aggressive? The issue is these camera's aren't really that much cleaner...it's just that the default NR is getting stronger and stronger
If you look carefully at the included data, Rob Galbraith specifically states that there is no post-production NR going on here. Besides the standard in camera NR, nothing more has been done to the image.
I think you miss the point - That is the problem though
Haven't you noticed camera NR is getting more and more aggressive? The issue is these camera's aren't really that much cleaner...it's just that the default NR is getting stronger and stronger
Nov 25, 2009 at 07:39 PM
p.4 #19Jeff Ascough and 1D4
i really hope the 1D4 is as good as the propaganda - i want a 1D3 for €2.
Nov 25, 2009 at 08:01 PM
p.4 #20Jeff Ascough and 1D4
jeff ascough said...
Ok, for the folks following this thread, I'd like to update a few things as I shot most of yesterday's wedding with the 1DIV, and in really dark conditions. Anyone that has shot at Great John's Street Hotel and Manchester Town Hall at 4pm in the middle of winter will know the conditions I experienced
In terms of lens choice, I stuck with a 24-70 pretty much all day with the camera. Because of the logistics of the wedding, I could only take a minimum amount of gear with me, so it made sense to take the zoom and allow the iso capability of the camera to deal with the 2.8 aperture. At times I was shooting 12800 iso and even H1 (25600 iso). I'll post some images later in the week, but initial thoughts are that H1 is very useable, and with a little NR with Define 2.0 I reckon they will look fantastic.
I used the AI servo mode for the processional, and even in low light at 6400 iso it nailed the focus. In fact (I'm not sure if this is my imagination) I felt that in AI servo mode, the camera was faster to focus instead of One Shot. I used AI servo for some of the drinks reception and while I did have fun trying to get used to focusing with it, it was very accurate.
I used the peripheral focus points and shutter button focus this time, as prior to the 5DII, this was my preferred way of working. I'd forgotten how much better this is than using the centre point and recomposing. All of the focus points (I had 11 engaged) were accurate. For super low light I still used the centre point, as traditionally this is always the most sensitive, but I'm not sure if this is just me playing it safe.
For some reason, I felt that I noticed the 1.3 crop more this week. No idea why. I haven't used anything but full frame for three years now, and while I didn't really notice it a couple of weeks ago, I did this week. Maybe it's because I used the 24-70 and expected to have a little more at the wide end? Last time out I used primes and I guess the difference in thought processes involved in the two lens types was the difference. The upside is the extra reach at the 70mm end of the zoom was very welcome. The 1.3 viewfinder remains a joy to use.
On the subject of the 24-70, there has been some really bad press concerning this lens over the years, and yet mine has always been perfect. It focuses accurately, and is very sharp - I did buy it a few years ago now and it has been into service two or three times just to make sure everything is fine. Earlier this year I dropped it and bent the filter ring, but that was replaced and it remains a fine lens.
So after two weddings - am I still a fan of the camera? Absolutely. I can take pictures which even a month ago would have been impossible to take.
Ok, for the folks following this thread, I'd like to update a few things as I shot most of yesterday's wedding with the 1DIV, and in really dark conditions. Anyone that has shot at Great John's Street Hotel and Manchester Town Hall at 4pm in the middle of winter will know the conditions I experienced
In terms of lens choice, I stuck with a 24-70 pretty much all day with the camera. Because of the logistics of the wedding, I could only take a minimum amount of gear with me, so it made sense to take the zoom and allow the iso capability of the camera to deal with the 2.8 aperture. At times I was shooting 12800 iso and even H1 (25600 iso). I'll post some images later in the week, but initial thoughts are that H1 is very useable, and with a little NR with Define 2.0 I reckon they will look fantastic.
I used the AI servo mode for the processional, and even in low light at 6400 iso it nailed the focus. In fact (I'm not sure if this is my imagination) I felt that in AI servo mode, the camera was faster to focus instead of One Shot. I used AI servo for some of the drinks reception and while I did have fun trying to get used to focusing with it, it was very accurate.
I used the peripheral focus points and shutter button focus this time, as prior to the 5DII, this was my preferred way of working. I'd forgotten how much better this is than using the centre point and recomposing. All of the focus points (I had 11 engaged) were accurate. For super low light I still used the centre point, as traditionally this is always the most sensitive, but I'm not sure if this is just me playing it safe.
For some reason, I felt that I noticed the 1.3 crop more this week. No idea why. I haven't used anything but full frame for three years now, and while I didn't really notice it a couple of weeks ago, I did this week. Maybe it's because I used the 24-70 and expected to have a little more at the wide end? Last time out I used primes and I guess the difference in thought processes involved in the two lens types was the difference. The upside is the extra reach at the 70mm end of the zoom was very welcome. The 1.3 viewfinder remains a joy to use.
On the subject of the 24-70, there has been some really bad press concerning this lens over the years, and yet mine has always been perfect. It focuses accurately, and is very sharp - I did buy it a few years ago now and it has been into service two or three times just to make sure everything is fine. Earlier this year I dropped it and bent the filter ring, but that was replaced and it remains a fine lens.
So after two weddings - am I still a fan of the camera? Absolutely. I can take pictures which even a month ago would have been impossible to take.
Dec 07, 2009 at 07:26 AM