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Archive 2004 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions

  
 
gervaise
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p.5 #1 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Hope to do more testing tomorrow, including some Enhance Matte Posterboard to test the ability to print media that has to be passed back thru the printer to print because of its thickness.

Did a bunch of Prem Glossy on small letter size early this AM and it is a bit of a pain to manually feed them since the printer will not accept them in the paper bin, as they apparently do not pick up correctly. The problem with hand feeding is you have to do each one, one at a time, and then the mechanism sometimes feeds it crooked and it is rejected by the very precise laser head that checks for paper alignment. It is nice that it saves you lost paper by refusing to accept paper hand fed which has been skewed in the process of loading. I think I would have preferred that it accept the paper from the bin and I not have to feed them one by one. Another design "feature" that is a bit inconvenient. As a result I may just standardize on semi-gloss for photographic type prints as it is almost as good for this, OR just use my R800 which does feed them in easier and has a better shiny finish with the gloss optimizer. A good reason to own both printers - guess it is only money, but I am afraid the R800 cartridges will prove expensive, they are so much smaller than those of the 2200 !!

-Gerry



Apr 06, 2004 at 10:35 PM
scrubber
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p.5 #2 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


So, I had my sample prints back today from Epson after their attempt to reproduce my Black and White photos printed using MIS Ultratone2 hextone grey inkset.

They had replicated each of the prints I sent them on the Premium semigloss and Ultra smooth papers. Each in three iterations :

1. Black only (Kp on semigloss, Km on US)
2. Epson Driver RGB image
3. Custom Profile RGB image

On their own, all the prints look quite nice, in the right light (more on this in a minute). But bring in the UT2 hextone grey prints and you are left in no doubt which is better, the tonal range and shadow / highlight depth is just not there on the Epson - but I guess this is largely to be expected with a colour inkset.
The prints did all seem to exhibit a little more detail than my 1290 prints, maybe this is the 'grain' associated with the different colour inkset though - may just be perception.
I was particulary impressed with the Black Only print. If there are no high key transitions this is hard to differentiate from the UT2 print except for the higher 'luminosity' which is actually quite pleasing. Put your nose a foot from the print though and there are the dots - yuk.
Now the worst bit. Metamarism. I found it totally unacceptable. The profiled prints on semigloss looked really cyan (flourescent office light), take them into daylight and they were plumb-bob neutral - fantastic, if you live outside. The Epson driver prints on UltraSmooth were magenta in the office, cyan in sunlight - no good solution.

Bronzing was hard to see, images looked very consistant across the page.
Worrying was that I could see some banding (evidently in the black ink)- can't understand this if the machine is supposed to self align and self nozzle clean, this was the single biggest seller for me....

I have had my pre-ordered and been given a date (via my Pro dealer) from Epson of the first week in May, which is better than I expected.

If the colour solution doesn't work out, I always have the UT7 grey inkset which is currently being developed.

Steve




Apr 07, 2004 at 05:53 AM
scrubber
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p.5 #3 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


scrubber wrote:
Now the worst bit. Metamarism. I found it totally unacceptable. The profiled prints on semigloss looked really cyan (flourescent office light), take them into daylight and they were plumb-bob neutral - fantastic, if you live outside. The Epson driver prints on UltraSmooth were magenta in the office, cyan in sunlight - no good solution.




oops, forgot to mention. Under a loupe, the yellow is clearly used a lot, there seems to have been no change in the profiles of the 4000 to reduced the yellow which is, by most accounts, the main cause of the metamarism problem. Oh well.

Steve



Apr 07, 2004 at 06:02 AM
Photon
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p.5 #4 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Steve, how would you compare your b&w prints done with the MIS Ultratone2 hextone grey inkset (using what printer, BTW) to chemical darkroom b&w prints - ignoring for a moment the metamerism problem?

Thanks.

- Jess



Apr 07, 2004 at 09:04 AM
williamcarter
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p.5 #5 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


I'll just add my own initial blurb on the 4000. (First, I didn't get my problem w. installing the updated firmware resolved yet -- simply haven't had time).

Printer setup was fairly straightforward, if a bit annoying (are all the pices of blue tape really necessary? And why does the uses need to lift and lower the ink leves a dozen times during the ink charging procedure?). The printer is physically bigger than you think, but not as big as I'd feared. It's actually not a whole lot longer than the 2200, but is much deeper, particularly given the built-in roll-paper holder, which hangs way over the back. And it's a LOT heavier than you'd think a 17 inch wide printer would be.

I really like the detailed info the LCD panel on the printer gives you. E.g., when I loaded my first sheet of cut paper incorrectly (by just resting it against the right side of the intake at the top), the LCD told me "Paper not loaded correctly -- load more deeply." Of course, it then later told me that the paper was crooked, so I had to re-load. I think I've got it down now. (By the way -- does anyone know how to get the paper out when loaded incorrectly? There's gotta be a paper advance or retract button somewhere, but I don't know what it is, so I yanked it out by hand (I would not recommend this, as I do mean "yanked") I mean, I would know if I studied the manual, but no time so far).

First print was an 8x10 B&W on Enhanced Matte. I concur w. Gerry's observations on printing spped -- this thing is FAST. (I"m connected via Firewire, but only because I didn't have a free USB cable -- I've never found that firewire makes much of a differnce in speed on Epson printers). I printed at 1440dpi, using "printer color management" in the Photoshop driver and "color controls" in the Epson driver. I did this b/c I found on my 2200, this method gets closer to neutral grayscale than using a profile and "no color adjustment." I'm quite pleased w.t he print quality. Here's the big caveat, though: while this print looked neutral under indoor tungsten lighting, I have no reason to think it will have less metamerism than any current Epson printer. The B&W prints form my 2200 also look neutral under tungsten, but take on a visible greenish tint under daylight. I can't draw any firm conclusions on the 4000 w. regard to metamerism yet, b/c it's really really cloudy here today. When I looked at the print under the severely overcast outdoor light today, there was a barely perceptible color shift, but just barely. We'll see how it holds up under sunlight.

What else? Build quality is exceptional. I like the fact that it has 3 ways to feed cut sheets (paper tray; rear; and top) plus roll capabilty. I'm highly annoyed that the cutter won't cut "fine-art" paper, much of which (like Ultrasmooth/PremierArt) is not particularly thick. This problem is made worse by the relatively high price and short supply of cut 17 inch sheets. I'm glad it has a firewire port built in (my 9600 does not -- seems strange to me that the smaller printers (2200 and 4000 do, while the bigger printer, to which you'll be sending larger files, does not). As I said, I've never found the type of connection to make a tremendous amount of difference, but I like having alternate connection options, since I've run out of space on my USB hub.

Tonight I'll move on to some color prints and report back. By the way, my 2200 available to buy is anyone's interested.



Apr 07, 2004 at 09:40 AM
scrubber
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p.5 #6 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Photon wrote:
Steve, how would you compare your b&w prints done with the MIS Ultratone2 hextone grey inkset (using what printer, BTW) to chemical darkroom b&w prints - ignoring for a moment the metamerism problem?

Thanks.

- Jess



They are different, beautiful (in fact I prefer them for their vast range), but different. The new UT2 set allows printing onto RC luster/gloss papers with no rub off and little bronzing - if you spray these prints (which I dont bother with incidentally) you get pretty close to a selenium toned darkroom print when printed neutral. Put any of the prints under glass in gallery conditions and you're going to struggle to find anyone who is not an experienced/master digital or darkroom printer who can tell what process the print was made with.

From the limited results I've seen (from the Epson expert himself I might add though....) the 4000 will not compete with the UT2 set for B&W. But, I can always put UT2 in the 4000 if I want - the printer itself is fantastic.


Steve

ps printers - I use 3 Epson 1290s printers (1280 in US) with CF systems.



Apr 07, 2004 at 10:15 AM
Photon
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p.5 #7 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Thanks Steve. I may have to explore reviving my old 1270 or 2000P with that ink set. I'll try a web search for info, unless you have a link handy for the manufacturer's site.

- Jess



Apr 07, 2004 at 10:50 AM
Arthur Li
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p.5 #8 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Hi Steve & William

Thank you v. much for posting your experience, I was a bit disappointed to note that on the face of it, metamerism is still very much there - looks like I will go with the 2200 and Imageprint because I can't justify the 4000 PLUS Imageprint...






Apr 07, 2004 at 11:00 AM
scrubber
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p.5 #9 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Photon wrote:
Thanks Steve. I may have to explore reviving my old 1270 or 2000P with that ink set. I'll try a web search for info, unless you have a link handy for the manufacturer's site.

- Jess



No problem Jess, here are the only two sites you'll ever need if you go that route :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
http://www.inksupply.com/



Apr 07, 2004 at 11:05 AM
gervaise
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p.5 #10 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


William, in re your question
"(By the way -- does anyone know how to get the paper out when loaded incorrectly? There's gotta be a paper advance or retract button somewhere, but I don't know what it is, so I yanked it out by hand (I would not recommend this, as I do mean "yanked") I mean, I would know if I studied the manual, but no time so far)."

All I do is lift the Secured/Released lever on the top right side. This takes the pressure off the platten and allows you to slide the paper out easily. It is usually not possible to push it back up the manual input area, but it pulls out from inside if you lift the cover and take it out. If the paper is wide, it can scratch the surface, so be careful in doing so.

You are right, it takes a few tries to learn how to feed the paper manually, especially letter size. For some reason the larger widths load more easily. The message is very specific - it tells you if it was not deeply loaded enough or if it is just crooked. The thicker papers are easier to load manually than the thin ones.

-Gerry



Apr 07, 2004 at 11:33 AM
lumipix
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p.5 #11 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Many thanks to Gerry and others who are educating me via this thread.


Apr 07, 2004 at 12:30 PM
gervaise
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p.5 #12 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Permanence Ratings for 4000 and Epson Papers-

Don't recall seeing this information being mentioned here before and was just looking at it. The Wilhelm tests of the Epson papers on the Epson 4000 in a report dated March 28, 2004, are posted here:

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/WIR_Ep4000_2004_03_28.pdf

I don't imagine most of us will be around to check if these dates are correct, but they sound pretty good - like 180-200 years for some.

-Gerry



Apr 07, 2004 at 08:45 PM
williamcarter
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p.5 #13 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Brief update:

(1) Got the firmware update to work. The problem apparently was in the new firmware file I downloaded, because when I deleted it and downloaded it again, the firmware update function via Utility 2 worked fine.

(2) As Gerry reported, the initial ink charging procedure does use about 40-50% of the ink in the supplied cartridges. I have made a total of 2 prints so far and all the inks show about half full in the status monitor.

(3) I am still holding off on forming a solid opinion on metamerism w. B&W. The print I made a couple of days ago was on Enhanced Matte and had a pretty limited tonal range (lots of black blacks and high key whites with just a bit of midtones). I've decided that this isn't terribly representative of a "normal" B&W print and therefore may not be employing the full range of inks one would expect in an average grayscale print, and therefore may not be exhibiting typical metamerism. So for now, I'll say that this particular (atypical) print shows very little metamerism. I'm going to go back and find an image that I printed on the 2200 that had unacceptable metamerism and print it on the 4000 using the same paper (I'll try some Premium Luster, in case metamerism is different on different papers).

(4) Very pleased w. the color output. I made a 16x24 on Premium Semi-Matte last night and it is extraordinarily close to what I saw in the soft proof on screen (Apple Cinema Display). I do't have a terribly critical eye for color, so take this with a grain of salt, but I find this print to be every bit as good as prints made with the 2200 using ImagePrint's color profiles. (Then again, I didn't find the ImagePrint color profiles to be THAT much better than those with the standard profiles on the 2200, so again, my eye for color may not be as good as some people). I had previously printed this same image on my 9600 using the Atkinson profile, but can't do a direct comparison as that print is at the frameshop now (and was printed on canvas, so it wouldn't be a direct comparison anyway.

(5) The printer is a bit lous when printing, but not excessively so. And at least the noise is a smooth "wooshing" sound, not a buzzing, so to the extent that it's a bit loud, it doesn't really bother me.

(6) Just FYI, I currently have the 4000 sitting on 2 milk crates (not one on top of the other, but side by side). Seems stable enough until I get a table this weekend. Of course, it's also low enough for the cat to jump on it....

(7) The print on semi-matte was made on roll paper. As I noted earlier, the 4000 is VERY touchy about that paper being loaded correctly -- I had to reload after my first attempt to load the roll paper. But here's what's interesting: after reloading, it accepted the paper and started the print, but when the print started coming out, it was clear that the paper was still a bit crooked (the top white border steadily increased in size as it was coming out). I didn't lose any of the image, but the bottom border correspondingly got veyr small by the time the print finished. meaning that I will lose some of the image to cut it straight. Obviously, despite the fail-safes of the 4000 regarding loading, you still have to be very careful to make sure the paper is loaded correctly and straight. I obviously don't have it down to a science yet.



Apr 08, 2004 at 09:11 AM
gervaise
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p.5 #14 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


To ALL Viewers -
My thanks for your various comments on this very long thread on the new 4000.

It seems to me that it has about run out its usefulness at this point, so I will not be posting anything further here and will ask Hendrick to close it, so it does not become an albatross and impossible to read thru. I think it does illustrate the perils of being an early adapter and having to resolve a lot of problems for yourself, even with help from the manufacturer, Epson in this case.

I have been running test after test on a single print from Jess, and some of mine, to determine the likely average ink use and time to print different size images. This has had interesting and at times frustrating results, especially because the printer is very, very picky about manually loaded papers, as I commented earlier and as William has just confirmed.

I am very impressed with the reporting functions on jobs, ink use, and times it has taken. For that reason, I thought it might be useful to you all for me to put together one final report on that subject and to post it and some other collected comments on problems and benefits of this printer in a different thread, so that if there are comments or questions on that specific subject we can all benefit from them without having to keep looking through this monsterous thread. I will do that tomorrow, time allowing, as I now have the statistics and information needed to do that. I have also run through a heck of a lot of paper, but I think it was worth it, because I have learned most of the idiosyncrosies of this machine.

In the meantime, if anyone else reading this thread has questions on matters covered in it, please feel free to PM or email me. It is easier if you just use the email function, and I will give you a personal reply when I get a minute. Got to get on to making some specific prints of my own that I have been waiting for this printer to do, and I will also post some of them when they are finished processing and editing.

Thanks for your encouragement on this project.

-Gerry



Apr 08, 2004 at 10:17 PM
Arthur Li
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p.5 #15 · Epson 4000 Report - First Impressions


Gerry

Don't thank us!!

I am sure I speak on behalf of everyone who has seen this thread (whether they posted comments or not) when I wholeheartedly applaud your generosity with your time and patience. It has been enlightening.

Now go and enjoy the "Grey Monster"!!



Apr 09, 2004 at 05:10 AM
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