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Archive 2009 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list

  
 
Jacob D
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p.3 #1 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Benj,

Personally I would be annoyed by unsolicited contact from the other photog (as a client of yours). Not everyone might feel that way, some of your clients might see him/her as a valuable alternative to you. It really doesn't matter if they are in the same league as you or not, only what the client thinks since it's their money. You then have to decide if your clients happiness is most important to you, or if running a successful business is more important. If it's the former, than you should have no problem with your clients choosing whomevers' services makes them happy... and if it's the latter than you can't fault your competitor for being competitive. It's not like he broke into your office and stole your client list. It's more like you posted it on the door of your business for anyone walking by to take a look at. Sounds like you have fixed that now.

I don't run a photo business, but I am self employed. I do everything I can to guard my client list... I know exactly what my competitors would do with it. That's just business.

Business ethics is really an oxymoron. Between competitors there are no true ethics, only what is legal and what is not. Between merchant and client there are ethics beyond the law, and between friends/comrades there are ethics beyond the law. This is why it is advised not to mix business and friendship The rules for one doesn't apply to the other. If this guy is a friend of yours maybe he went over the ethical line; otherwise it's just business.

Edited on Nov 16, 2009 at 05:59 PM · View previous versions



Nov 16, 2009 at 05:56 PM
Costley
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p.3 #2 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Benji - to say I take exception to your statement is, well an understatement, as I don't feel I did or said any of that...... I think my point was clear and I'll leave my words to speak for themselves! IMHO


Nov 16, 2009 at 05:58 PM
Costley
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p.3 #3 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Well said Jacob D...


Nov 16, 2009 at 06:01 PM
Pfiltz
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p.3 #4 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Footnote: I heard today on CNBC driving to the studio, that the amount of new subscribers to it, under the age of 25 is dropping, and more and more grandma's and such are using it.

12 months, you'll be looking to another on-line networking site. Remember MySpace ...



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:05 PM
CRFTony
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p.3 #5 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Pfiltz wrote:
Footnote: I heard today on CNBC driving to the studio, that the amount of new subscribers to it, under the age of 25 is dropping, and more and more grandma's and such are using it.

12 months, you'll be looking to another on-line networking site. Remember MySpace ...


Yeah, I read about that. And it's true. My aunt's on there and she can't even figure out how to turn off her caps lock key.

For me, I'm in a mostly rural area so we're about a year behind the trends. Facebook just became big here this year so I think I've got a good year left to milk it. Then on to the next cow.



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:11 PM
benj
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p.3 #6 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


@ Jacob D - I can appreciate your perspective and I even understand it. I used to subscribe to it (i.e. "That's just business"). But I realized that there are such things as positive profits and negative profits. And negative profits (though still a profit) contaminate the business world. Too many people just give in and say, "Well, that's just how things are...get used to it"

That is a fair statement, but I've realized lately that I have more influence in the market around me, and my behavior and belief system that I promote through my business practices will have either a good or bad effect on the industry.

I've chosen to step out of the "that's just business" kind of thinking and proactively improve things around me. It's a different way of thinking, but I can tell you that the benefits are very worth the risks that come with appearing naive.

As for your comments about no ethics in business...well...it's that kind of thinking that got our economy into the problems it is in now. Too many people were sleeping during their business ethics classes, and realized that it's all about money.

So we have the choice to be a part of that world or not. I choose not to be. But like my teachers always told me. If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

@ Costley - Perhaps you were just unclear in your statement, because my response to you reflected what you communicated. As I just said to Jacob D...if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

@ Pfiltz - That's interesting. I wonder if the drop in the amount of daily subscribers is due to the possibility that most everyone that is going to join has already joined. Now the older generations are starting to catch on.

But I would totally be interested to see what comes next. I know there are a lot of companies trying to be the next Facebook, but I wonder if anyone will actually do it.

Benj



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:15 PM
Pfiltz
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p.3 #7 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Benj, what I was hearing, that since more of the older gen-x is using it, less and less 14 to 25 year olds will.

The next viral networking site, is just around the corner...




Nov 16, 2009 at 06:18 PM
benj
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p.3 #8 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


@ Pfiltz - Probably right. It's crazy how fast things happen and how something seemingly permanent could be gone or forgotten overnight. I'm just glad Fred Miranda is here. I left for a couple years, and I'm back recently. I'm happy to see the same sort of community and involvement.

Benj



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:22 PM
Micky Bill
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p.3 #9 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Frankly if I was senior in high school and had some photographer 'friending' me I might find it a little creepy...

I don't think that if I have a client, I am entitled to this client forever. Unless you are in favor of restricting trade the market place is always flexible and changing. If you don't actively go out and find new clients you eventually be out of business. Facebook or Linkdin or Chamber of Commerce other social networking programs are fair game. Toyota and Ford, etc. all buy registration lists from the DMV to target their competition.



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:27 PM
CRFTony
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p.3 #10 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Micky Bill wrote:
Unless you are in favor of restricting trade the market place is always flexible and changing.


Sigh... I don't know why this is so complicated. Here's the simple version - again.

1. New photographer adds me on Facebook and is all "Hey, let's be nice colleagues and talk about photography and stuff.

2. Time passes.

3. I find out New photographer is looking at my friends list and adding every single person who is on there and marketing his services.

4. I get pissed off and vent about it on FM.

5. People on FM tell say "Relax dude, it's fine for him to do that."

6. I say "Okay" and wish I wouldn't have bothered posting anything in the first place.

Edited on Nov 16, 2009 at 06:43 PM · View previous versions



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:33 PM
Costley
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p.3 #11 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Benj; I appreciate your point of view as well as others, but to be honest, it sounds to me that you are saying if we/anyone doesn't agree with you we're all wrong and "part of the problem. I hear a lot of condescension within the words you use and the tone you take. Perhaps not everything is as black and white as you think, and yours is not the only correct point of view!!! IMHO


Nov 16, 2009 at 06:34 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #12 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Invite him to be your friend.

OR better yet, make your friends list private. That will end the behavoir.



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:43 PM
benj
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p.3 #13 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


@ CRFTony - simply put, some people here just don't get it. I think you were right to post this thread. The fact is that this other photographer was acting in an underhanded way, and whether legal or not, his method for accomplishing this was deceptive at best. I'm sorry that so many people told you to relax. I think it would be a different story if it actually happened to them...either that, or they are also the types of people to do the same underhanded things.

benj



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:46 PM
CRFTony
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p.3 #14 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Benj: Actually, the "relax" advice would have been accurate if I was really upset. But I wasn't truly mad, just annoyed and figured this would be a good place to share the story. I am surprised that many think there's nothing wrong with what he did, but I realize everyone has their own way of doing business. I always preferred to work with people rather than against them, but I guess in the current economic times, that's naive.

Either way, I'm quite over it.



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:50 PM
benj
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p.3 #15 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


@ Costly - Some things are subjective and some things are objective. The point I'm trying to make is that we are all better than the "well...that's just business" attitude. Instead of participating in it or just sitting back and adapting to it, we have the opportunity (especially in this community) to affect a change where we rise above underhanded and lazy business tactics.

And I'd say it's less condescension and more accusation. If I hadn't just had a circular unproductive conversation with Kakomu, I might have been less upset sounding, and would rather have spent my energy trying to convert you all to the concept that business ethics is NOT an oxymoron, but a goal that we should all be trying to achieve. I'm just frustrated with all the corruption we see in our business world, and instead of trying to do something about it, so many of us just say, "Well, that's just the way it is".

To me, that is like giving into any bad practice just because it's the status quo. In my opinion, one of the main points to our human existence is to leave things better than the way we found them. So instead of succumbing to the cut throat business world where people are leaching off of each other in underhanded ways (instead of true honest competition), we should be trying to speak out against this kind of behavior.

Telling ORFTony to relax and saying that it's not a big deal, or that there's nothing wrong with it just makes us part of the problem. The truth hurts, so if you're feeling a little attacked, then perhaps you should reevaluate things a bit. I'm not saying that I'm right in everything. In fact, I'm wrong in about 90% of what I say, but I know that there is nothing subjective about saying that we should show respect and be honest in our dealings with those around us.

Benj



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:54 PM
Jacob D
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p.3 #16 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Benj,

It's great that you have a strong personal moral ethic, personally I do too... but there is no place for it *between competitors* in business.

If you visited your competitors office to see what they have cooking and discover their client listed pasted on the front door - and you don't take note of it that's a bad business move, because they will (and in this case have) do it to you, and if you are out of business or lose profit because of it there is nobody to blame but yourself. It's business, not "personalness" or "common-courtesyness".

I don't know you so when I say "you" please don't take it too personal; I'm pondering some scenarios here...

- I would guess if it was in your power to save a competitor from going under you wouldn't, even though you could.

- I would guess if you recognized your competitor made a mistake that gave you a legal business advantage you would take it, even if it would hurt their bottom line.

- I would guess that you would not intentionally scale back your own success to ensure that other competitors get their fare share, even if not scaling back would mean that they would surely go out of business and put their family out on the street.


This is why business ethics *between competitors* does not exist. All of these situations are moral dilemmas, yet they are common every day occurrences in business. You could do something to help your competitor, yet you don't. There is nothing wrong with that. It's the nature of a successful business to cause the financial ruin of others.




Nov 16, 2009 at 06:56 PM
Jacob D
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p.3 #17 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


I guess that the point I'm trying to get across is, just because this happened, doesn't mean the guy is a scumbag. He may end up being the guy who finds your wallet on the street and returns it to you with all the cash inside... or hey may be a total dirt bag, who knows!

I wouldn't be so quick to accuse someone of being a scumbag based on the fact that he capitalized on his business competitor's mistake.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:00 PM
kakomu
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p.3 #18 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Jacob D wrote:
He may end up being the guy who finds your wallet on the street and returns it to you with all the cash inside.


As an aside, I found a guy's bus pass at a dunkin donuts downtown a month or two ago. The guy wrote his name and number on the back. I called it and returned it to him the next week. Just in case people had doubts about my moral compass.

That being said, I still stand by the fact that if the OP put the list up for all to see and someone used it for solicitation, there's nothing immoral or unethical about it. Whether solicitation does anything is beside the point (my general opinion is that advertising and solicitation is annoying, but that's neither here nor there). It's a legitimate business move.

Costley wrote:
Benj; I appreciate your point of view as well as others, but to be honest, it sounds to me that you are saying if we/anyone doesn't agree with you we're all wrong and "part of the problem. I hear a lot of condescension within the words you use and the tone you take. Perhaps not everything is as black and white as you think, and yours is not the only correct point of view!!! IMHO


I agree. I don't like being called names or being talked down to because I don't subscribe to a subjective set of moral business codes. In my opinion, so long as the competition isn't being malicious, dishonest or deceptive and that they abide by the law, they aren't doing anything wrong.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:19 PM
benj
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p.3 #19 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


Jacob D - I'm not taking any offense to your comments. I appreciate the discourse. Hopefully you'll take my comments the same way.

1. When you said, "But there's not place for it "between competitors" in business", I didn't know what to say. That seems an awful lot like situational ethics...which is much more of an oxymoron than business ethics is. If you live by principles, then those principles are always applicable. You may miss some opportunities or advantage afforded you by circumstance over your competitors from time to time, but overall, you'll be a better person, business, and you'll improve the world.

There is a misconception that "there can be only one". Perhaps too many people watched "Highlander" when they were younger. But here's the thing. There's a lot more room at the top than many people think. If I succeed, that doesn't mean that you will fail...and vice versa. We can all succeed. When we talk about being competitive, we shouldn't be thinking how can I get the slip on my opponent, but we should be thinking...how can I make my business the best it can be? How can I reach my customers and meet their needs and raise the industry standards though my work?

The idea that one person must fail in order for you to succeed is a narrow and limited view.

The higher law that I'm talking about coincides with the idea that behaving well will in no way negatively affect your business. Of course there will always be snakes in the world that might take advantage of us, but that's the whole point of what I'm talking about...to get rid of the snakes. If we foster the business environment where snakes can thrive, then we only ad to the long term problem.

I'm in no way a "share the wealth" kind of person. I'm a capitalist to the core. But I am a person that sees capitalism for what it is, and not for what the snakes have made it. I have too many friends that talk negatively about capitalism, and when they speak ill of it, they don't know it, but they're actually just describing the corruption of capitalism and not actual capitalism.

2. If I had the power to save a competitor from going out of business, I would definitely save them. I know that sounds bad short term, but long term, it makes for a better end result. Competition makes you better. When you are running track, if you have someone running with you, you will generally push harder and do better than if you were alone. Too many companies standing alone stagnate and lose perspective of what their customers want.

So it's in my best interest to promote health honest competition.

3. If my competitor made a mistake, I would base my reaction or response to that mistake on what kind of mistake it was. If they had a great sale, and misprinted the date to make it virtually unusable, I'd go and tell them so they can fix it. I'm trying to think of a mistake that my competitor could make that I wouldn't want to warn him about, and I can't think of one. It goes back to my previous comments about wanting to keep health competition in the market.

I'm not going to copy my opponents, because then it splits the market and possible profits. Instead, I'll adapt and provide services that are different from what my competitor offers. We each fit a certain niche in the market, and that's how we improve our own chances of increased clientele as well as improving our craft in that area. If we're spending all day trying to match every move our competitor makes, then we'll be wasting our time and ultimately our resources that should be used to improve our services.

4. Like I said before, there is a lot more room at the top than people think. I don't need to scale back my success in order for another to succeed. Granted, there are elements of this in the market, but that is an indication that people aren't adapting to the market, and people aren't making themselves unique from their competitors.

5. If a business goes out of business, I want to make sure that it's not because of some underhanded thing I did. If it is a result of their inability to adapt to an honest playing field, then perhaps that's just not the business for them. But I won't be able to look myself in the mirror if I am resorting to underhanded business practices that focus on pulling down a competitor rather than just promoting myself. I think the same can be said in politics. Politicians who focus their energies on digging up dirt on their opponents are not the kinds of people we want to lead our country. Instead, we need leaders who instead focus on what they are doing right, and what they will do to improve our country. They are rising above the mud.

6. Moral dilemmas only exist where morals aren't firmly attached. If you've made up your mind to live according to principles of fairness, honestly, hard work, competition (the good kind), then when you're faced with a so called "Moral Dilemma", then you realize that it's not really a dilemma. It's just something you quickly move past because you decided a long time ago how you were going to act when faced with that problem.

I agree that some businesses succeed at the expense of their competitors. That is fine so long as their failure isn't a result of underhanded actions on your part. If they fail just because you were just so good at what you did, and they weren't, then that's just business.

IMHO.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:24 PM
kakomu
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p.3 #20 · Another photographer is raiding my Facebook friends list


benj wrote:
The idea that one person must fail in order for you to succeed is a narrow and limited view.


I haven't seen anyone suggest this.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:39 PM
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