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Archive 2009 · Image Quality - A850 or D700

  
 
Chris48
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p.3 #1 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Thank you all for the great replies. Very helpful indeed. I don't have any brand loyalty and I've been running several camera systems since the film days. So over the years I have acquired a few excellent lenses. I probably will convert and use the following lenses in the yet to be decided camera: Nikon 17-35; C/Y 21; Leica 35/2; Leica 50/1.4; Leica 100/2.8 and Leica 180/3.4. All these lenses clear the 5D mirror. The A850 should be fine but I'm not really too sure about the D700.

Why I want to retire the 5D: because I don't like its color rendering. The color saturation is somewhat washed. Also, every now and then, I will find some colors which are "unnatural", mainly greens that are yellowish and blues that are too light. If I want to print them (I don't print large, though), I have to PS them quite a bit. I know many here find the 5DII a great camera. I also know that the 5D needs profiling and I've done that to the best I could but still it's not entirely satisfying.

So, if the 5DII is broadly similar to the 5D in color rendering, I would not be interested. From what I've read, the 5DII's colors are similar to the 5D's.

Currently, I have the Pentax K10 and K20. When I first got the K10, I like its colors slightly better than the 5D. That was about 3 years ago. Last year, after I got the K20, I like its colors a lot. The files, straight after raw conversion, are beautiful and requires almost no PP. Pentax has not FF DSLR.

I read that the A850 has very good colors, similar to the A900. I'm not sure how good the D700 may be. If the D700 (in terms of its colors) is just as good as the A850, I would want it simply because of the better AF. Besides, I do have a few Nikon AF lenses that I can put to use. If the D700 is just slightly inferior to the A850, I will have a hard time deciding between the two. By then, Nikon's better system support would be a valid consideration.

Nevertheless, color rendering is still the primary concern. I'm sure the 5DII is a great camera but its just that I don't love the 5D.



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:37 PM
James R
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p.3 #2 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


m_appeal wrote:
I didn't lose much $ from switching, except for the hit I took on the 1ds3, but even then I didn't lose that much...

I just got very lucky buying the Sony Alpha 900 for a rather ridiculous price of $ 2000 USD new including shipping and taxes.


Glad it didn't hurt. Surprised you sold a 1Ds3. Everybody I know who shoots it seem to love it.



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:37 PM
James R
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p.3 #3 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Chris,

Take a CF card to a camera store and shoot a few frames with various cameras and see which color renderings suit your taste. Hopefully, you have a cooperative store near-by.



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:41 PM
m_appeal
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p.3 #4 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


James R wrote:
Glad it didn't hurt. Surprised you sold a 1Ds3. Everybody I know who shoots it seem to love it.


I traded it... selling it has been difficult. And I got rid of it at least in part because I can't afford it right now. It's a big body as well although surprisingly lite for its type... I'd rather be shooting with something smaller. I prefer D700/5d2 size cameras...the smaller the better.



Nov 16, 2009 at 06:49 PM
m_appeal
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p.3 #5 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


I don't think you can convert the Nikon 17-35 to use on the Sony A850? I don't know for sure though.


Nov 16, 2009 at 06:52 PM
Chris48
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p.3 #6 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Sorry, just a small correction: the Leica 50/1.4 will hit the 5D mirror unless the plastic shoud at the last element is removed.

I love those alt lenses and as long as the conversion process is reversible, as the Leitax's is, I will not hesitate to convert them.

The 5D has been great. It has allowed me to try many exotic lenses from Leica, Contax/Zeiss, Nikon and Zuiko. It's would be a dream if somehow I could also try some Leica M, Pentax K or Minolta lenses on a single FF DSLR.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:09 PM
douglasf13
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p.3 #7 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


You won't have much luck with Nikon and Zuiko lenses on the A850. Color wise, the A850 is as close to medium format digital as you're gonna get.


Nov 16, 2009 at 07:16 PM
Chris48
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p.3 #8 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


m_appeal wrote "I don't think you can convert the Nikon 17-35 to use on the Sony A850? I don't know for sure though."

You are right. The Leitax adaptor can't do it on the Sony/Alpha mount. Thanks a lot. I am sure I can find something else and if all else fail, the ZA 16-35 or the 24/70 are not too bad.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:20 PM
Chris48
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p.3 #9 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


BTW, I love to print but only up to about 20 or 24 inches max. With some upres, the 5D can do that comfortably in terms of sharpness. But the colors need a bit of work.


Nov 16, 2009 at 07:32 PM
m_appeal
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p.3 #10 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Chris48 wrote the ZA 16-35 or the 24/70 are not too bad.


I don't think you'll be disappointed with those 2.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:37 PM
Chris48
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p.3 #11 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


m_appeal wrote:
I don't think you'll be disappointed with those 2.


When I said that, I actually mean they are great lenses, only if they can be less conspicious (and they are conspicious!) and lighter. Between the two, I would probably choose the 24-70 but I don't see using it a lot because of the weight issue.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:50 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #12 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


m_appeal wrote:
From what I've seen Nikon 14-24 is sharp into the extreme corners even wide open. I have not seen samples with the D3X though....

Apparently, the Nikon 24-70 doesn't perform as well on the D3x as the Zeiss does on the A900, although I'm more speculating on that than anything... BUT I did read that 24-70 isn't perfect on the D3x.


Most lenses will take a severe hit when used on 24mp cameras. The 12mp sensor of the D700 is very kind on lenses.

I have no doubt however that the 14-24 is the best UWA zoom on the market. But when comparing it to the Zeiss 16-35, one has to take a few things in consideration. The most obvious one is that it can't be used on the Alpha mount. Also that it is a 1.7X zoom while the 16-35 is a 2.18X, a bit more ambitious but involving more design compromises. The 25 to 35mm range does not exist on the Nikon, while the 14-15mm range is missing on the Zeiss, they are not exactly in the same category and the Zeiss gives more flexibility with a wider zoom range.

One last word about the cameras themselves. The D3X is probably the best DSLR out there. I love its color rendition, even though I prefer that of the A900. One recent test on lenstip shows that there is very little difference in sharpness between the AA filterless M9 and the D3X, which means the AA filter on the D3X is almost non existant. The A900 is very similar to the 1Ds3, whic was considered to have a weak AA filter, but there is a day and night difference with the D3X, which leads me to believe the AA filter on both Canon and Sony is unnecessarily strong in comparison. Sony also has the AA filter further away from the sensor to help with dust, but in fact this tends to exagerate the filter strength and while it helps to hide dust spots, the ones that are visible become huge due to this distance and are a pain to clone out.

I am sure if the Zeiss were to be available for the Nikon mount, it would be even more stellar on the D3X. My hope is that Sony's A900 successor will have a more reasonable AA filter especially that it is not really needed with the high pixel count.



Nov 17, 2009 at 02:13 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #13 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Chris48 wrote:
Why I want to retire the 5D: because I don't like its color rendering. The color saturation is somewhat washed. Also, every now and then, I will find some colors which are "unnatural", mainly greens that are yellowish and blues that are too light. If I want to print them (I don't print large, though), I have to PS them quite a bit. I know many here find the 5DII a great camera. I also know that the 5D needs profiling and I've done that to the best I could but still it's not entirely satisfying.



I was in your exact same situation. Believe me you will love the A850 color rendering. In my photo club, there are many 5D2 and D700 users, and they are always amazed at the colors of my A900 even when we are out on a shoot and comparing the images on the camera LCD.



Nov 17, 2009 at 02:46 AM
pascal03
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p.3 #14 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Specularist wrote:
The A900/A850, D700 and 5D Mark II together prove that digital SLRs are still in their infancy. These cameras each have serious drawbacks in addition to their remarkable capabilities.

The A900 has worse high-ISO performance than the best crop-sensor cameras, lacks Live View, inherited the proprietary Minolta flash shoe, can't record to both memory cards simultaneously, and doesn't have much in the way of in-production lens selection (though there are a few great ones).

On the plus side, it has superior overall craftsmanship, a far better viewfinder than the others, it surely looks prettier on the shelf, and more importantly: it has
...Show more


Just out of curiosity, which of these 3 camera's do you actually own or have used for more than 3 months ?



Nov 17, 2009 at 10:26 AM
joekraft
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p.3 #15 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


In these discussions of color rendering between systems, I'm just curious: are we assuming that no color calibration is being used, e.g. the Adobe color profiling tools? Or are we saying that even with these calibrations, the systems are still that much different?


edwardkaraa wrote:
I was in your exact same situation. Believe me you will love the A850 color rendering. In my photo club, there are many 5D2 and D700 users, and they are always amazed at the colors of my A900 even when we are out on a shoot and comparing the images on the camera LCD.




Nov 17, 2009 at 11:57 AM
douglasf13
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p.3 #16 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


joekraft, this isn't about calibration and profiles. Canon has openly admitted to using more transmissive color filters lately to improve high ISO, and that requires the cameras to gain up certain colors, which results in error. Here are some interesting comments from RPP developer Iliah Borg, who owns/has owned all of the cameras we're talking about.

post 1

post 2




Nov 17, 2009 at 12:40 PM
joekraft
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p.3 #17 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Thanks, I'll look at that.
douglasf13 wrote:
joekraft, this isn't about calibration and profiles. Canon has openly admitted to using more transmissive color filters lately to improve high ISO, and that requires the cameras to gain up certain colors, which results in error. Here are some interesting comments from RPP developer Iliah Borg, who owns/has owned all of the cameras we're talking about.

post 1

post 2





Nov 17, 2009 at 12:48 PM
douglasf13
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p.3 #18 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Cool. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying that one camera is better than another. In fact, all of these fullframe DSLRs are great, and each has its strengths and weaknesses. My A900/850 recommendations are just based on the OP's requests.




Nov 17, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.3 #19 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Specularist, I agree with much of what you say, except when (talking about the D700), you say:

The viewfinder is the worst of the lot, with 95% coverage and no official options for a decent focusing screen. The camera is limited to 5 fps without the grip, for no obvious reason other than selling overpriced grips. The D700 is also the most over-complicated way in history to select an f-stop and shutter speed (the manual has 450 pages and would need more).

A comment or two: yes, the VF is "only" 95%, but is is huge and bright, and its AF is excellent AND the Live View is excellent for work that is more critical than what 95% gives you. In architectural and product work (except for quick and dirty) it is Live View all the time for me (TS lenses in particular), and the results are fast to achieve and 100% reliable, and all parts of the image can be checked, unlike the 5DII, and at sub-pixel level if you need it.

As for adjusting ƒ-stop and shutter speed, I just can't see anything easier than front or back command wheels (and you can reset the standard function of either if you have a preference; you can set auto ISO to kick in at any minimum shutter speed; and there are other ways to, including direct exp. comp.—what were you looking for? The degree of customisation is large enough for me, at least, so I am not sure what you mean here. cheers, kl



Nov 17, 2009 at 12:57 PM
joekraft
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p.3 #20 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Yeah, I'm not arguing anything either way. I just think it is an important clarification, because there are solutions now, that are very easy to implement. So I'm just wondering if these differences can be overcome, just like we calibrate monitors.


Nov 17, 2009 at 01:02 PM
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