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Archive 2009 · Image Quality - A850 or D700

  
 
Kit Laughlin
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p.12 #1 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Hey Henrik; Kit here. You wrote:

Does Nikon/Canon offer something I really need that Sony cannot offer?

In my case, unfortunately, yes. TS and Live View so that you can be sure of what you are shooting. It's dawn here; I am waiting to shoot the interior of a beach-side architect-designed house, and I have the 24 PC-E, 14-24, the new 60/2.8 and 105 VR macros. My point is that these are all specialist lenses, all available, and Live View makes them so easy to use with complete confidence.

And an event I am shooting at a local embassy this coming Thursday will rely on the D700's excellent high ISO and handling of mixed and flash light.

Reading the whole thread again, I can appreciate the Sony's great finder, great files and the lack of he need for PP to get top colour, but right now, the combination of Live View, TS lenses, macros and other lenses, the Nikon CLS and the high ISO when needed make the D3/D700 system hard to beat, IMHO. One decent wide TS and Live View (or whatever Sony will call it) and some more AF Zeiss lenses, and the equation will change, to be sure. cheers to all, kl




Nov 28, 2009 at 02:43 PM
James R
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p.12 #2 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


kosmoskatten wrote:
James, I agree almost to the letter with what you wrote.

I do think it is fair though - on a completely subjective basis - to dismiss a few lenses in a line up as "unnecessary" as with the 14/2.8. A gap in a lens line up only occurs for me when I need that particular lens they cannot provide. There are a few lenses I have never been interested in so I am perhaps more lenient in my idea of a "complete" lens line up.

A complete lens line up in my book starts at around 18-20mm, has at
...Show more

I'm not a fan of the 14 2.8, but the 14-24 is spectacular, zoom or not. I think your approach is well thought out. It prevents decisions based on brand and puts the onus on photographic needs.



Nov 28, 2009 at 05:43 PM
James R
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p.12 #3 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


edwardkaraa wrote:
Funny that you would mention that. I was thinking along the same lines. The M9 would be a great companion to the A900. The colors are equally nice, no AA filter, small body and lenses. The only other alternative would be a D3X, not cheap either. No more Canon for me thanks. The colors suck big time and still do even with the newest models.

An M9 with 3 Zeiss lenses to cover the 21-50 range, sounds like a good idea. And the ZM in this range are actually cheaper than the ZF.2 (and they focus the right way )


I'm keeping my D3 as a complement to the M9 (with a 35 cron, 50 lux, and 90 cron). I wanted a D3X but its ISO performance is similar to the M9. Now, I'm certain in a year, or so, a D3s will be in my bag.



Nov 28, 2009 at 05:54 PM
m_appeal
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p.12 #4 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


mawz wrote:
Nikon users can walk into any Nikon Dealer and buy those lenses. Sony users need to track down used copies, which are somewhat rare. Very different situation.


They are not rare...well the 35 f2 is, but the 35 1.4 is in production. The 24 2.8 is available on ebay all the time

But you do have very limited options unless you want to go searching for moderately to extremely rare used lenses it's a lot easier to find those exotic Nikon lenses used than the pedestrian 35/2 or 24/2.8 Minolta's.

I'm not sure why you keep calling the 35 2 RS pedestrian when it's a very good lens and possibly better than Nikon's 35 f2. I don't believe either Nikon's 24 2.8 or Minolta are that great, so I'm not sure why you would want them in the first place.

In fact, with the 14-24 on the Nikon side, I don't see why you'd want any of these primes in that range ... and 16-35 is a very good performer in that range.




Nov 28, 2009 at 07:58 PM
you2
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p.12 #5 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


m_appeal wrote:
They are not rare...well the 35 f2 is, but the 35 1.4 is in production. The 24 2.8 is available on ebay all the time

I'm not sure why you keep calling the 35 2 RS pedestrian when it's a very good lens and possibly better than Nikon's 35 f2.


Doesn't matter how good it is if it is very difficult to obtain. The 35f1.4 is large; expensive; and frankly from the reviews I've seen not that great.



Nov 28, 2009 at 08:16 PM
you2
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p.12 #6 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Kit Laughlin wrote:
Hey Henrik; Kit here. You wrote:

In my case, unfortunately, yes. TS and Live View so that you can be sure of what you are shooting. It's dawn here; I am waiting to shoot the interior of a beach-side architect-designed house, and I have the 24 PC-E, 14-24, the new 60/2.8 and 105 VR macros. My point is that these are all specialist lenses, all available, and Live View makes them so easy to use with complete confidence.

And an event I am shooting at a local embassy this coming Thursday will rely on the D700's excellent high ISO and handling
...Show more
Not meant as a debate since I own none of them but why nikon over canon? Is it due to imaging quality of bodies; lenses or just personal preference ?

For me the sony is very intriguing and if the 35f2 was readily available (and as good as folks suggest) then would be reasonable option; but as far Sony has no interest in producing more zeiss primes (other than perhaps a rumored 24f1.4) and the zooms; while very good do not make a system nor are my cup of tea (but i'm just repeating what i've written before). (the 35 is critical for me because then I could at least have a usable system of 35/50/{85 or 135}.



Nov 28, 2009 at 08:20 PM
jamach
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p.12 #7 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


Specularist wrote:
The A900/A850, D700 and 5D Mark II together prove that digital SLRs are still in their infancy. These cameras each have serious drawbacks in addition to their remarkable capabilities.

The A900 has worse high-ISO performance than the best crop-sensor cameras, lacks Live View, inherited the proprietary Minolta flash shoe, can't record to both memory cards simultaneously, and doesn't have much in the way of in-production lens selection (though there are a few great ones).

On the plus side, it has superior overall craftsmanship, a far better viewfinder than the others, it surely looks prettier on the shelf, and more importantly: it has
...Show more

wow, that is a fantastic analysis!



Nov 28, 2009 at 09:02 PM
mawz
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p.12 #8 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


m_appeal wrote:
They are not rare...well the 35 f2 is, but the 35 1.4 is in production. The 24 2.8 is available on ebay all the time


And the 35/1.4 is not well suited to many uses, it's a specialist lens suited primarily to work where outright speed is the main requirement and centre sharpness is far more important than edge performance. Given a choice between the two, I'd take the 35/2 any day of the week for general use. But getting one is difficult. The 24/2.8 is much easier to get but is still not anything approaching common.



I'm not sure why you keep calling the 35 2 RS pedestrian when it's a very good lens and possibly better than Nikon's 35 f2. I don't believe either Nikon's 24 2.8 or Minolta are that great, so I'm not sure why you would want them in the first place.

In fact, with the 14-24 on the Nikon side, I don't see why you'd want any of these primes in that range ... and 16-35 is a very good performer in that range.



Stick a 24/2.8 from either maker beside those zooms and you'll see why I want the option, not everybody wants to haul 1Kg zooms everywhere. Both lenses are thoroughly competent but not exceptional (well, the Nikon was exceptional when introduced, but that was in the late 60's. It's an old design which has aged surprisingly well through a half-dozen variations)

The 35/2 is pedestrian lens when compared to exotics like a 14/2.8. That's a commentary on how common and useful the lens is, not the quality of said lens. A 35/2 or a 24/2.8 are bread & butter lenses of a reasonably complete lineup. And ones which Sony lacks. NIkon on the other hand does not lack in bread & butter lenses OR the more exotic ultra-wides which are totally lacking in the Sony line.


Edited on Nov 28, 2009 at 09:23 PM · View previous versions



Nov 28, 2009 at 09:17 PM
mawz
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p.12 #9 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


you2 wrote:
Doesn't matter how good it is if it is very difficult to obtain. The 35f1.4 is large; expensive; and frankly from the reviews I've seen not that great.


It's actually rather compact, being marginally smaller and lighter than the Zeiss ZF 35/2. It's also a quite good lens when viewed in regards to its original place in the Minolta lens lineup, as a high-speed alternative to a 35/2 for when you need speed for low-light event/PJ work. An excellent lens as a second 35 in the line, however not a replacement for a good 35/2 as a general purpose lens.

Overall, the problem with the Sony lineup is a lack of options, not quality. The only poor lens in the prime lineup is the 28/2.8. But Sony made some unfortunate choices when they picked which lenses to produce. They should have chosen the 35/2 and 24/2.8 or 28/2 over the 35G and the 28/2.8. Sony really is assuming that you're going to go for f2.8 zooms over all other options on FF.



Nov 28, 2009 at 09:21 PM
m_appeal
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p.12 #10 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


The 35/2 is pedestrian lens when compared to exotics like a 14/2.8.

Not sure which 35 f2 you are talking about, but the 35 f2 RS isn't pedestrian compared to anything.

A 35/2 or a 24/2.8 are bread & butter lenses of a reasonably complete lineup. And ones which Sony lacks.

It doesn't lack them for the most part... it has choices (perhaps less readily available), but you just don't like them or you want additional choices. I agree that 35 1.4 is an expensive one...


NIkon on the other hand does not lack in bread & butter lenses OR the more exotic ultra-wides which are totally lacking in the Sony line.


14mm *is* exotic... you don't really absolutely need that focal lens... again... it's want vs need. Nikon doesn't have good quality zooms in the 70-300 range and 80-400 r- which hasn't been updated in ages. It does have the 200-400 for which you have to pay tons of $. Sony on the other hands offers 70-300 and 70-400 both of which are visibly superior to the Nikon counterparts. I personally think these are very important zooms... and Sony offers better quality in that area.



Nov 28, 2009 at 09:39 PM
mawz
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p.12 #11 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


m_appeal wrote:
Not sure which 35 f2 you are talking about, but the 35 f2 RS isn't pedestrian compared to anything.


You seem to be purposely misunderstanding me here. 35/2 is a pedestrian focal length. I'm not commenting on the optics but rather the place in the lineup compared to exotics like a 14/2.8.



It doesn't lack them for the most part... it has choices (perhaps less readily available), but you just don't like them or you want additional choices. I agree that 35 1.4 is an expensive one, but hey, they


I'd settle for options that I can buy without jumping through hoops. As in a lens which I can walk into a major retailer and purchase(or at least order). The 35/1.4 is very good at what it does but it's unsuitable for landscape or architectural work and a general-purpose 35/2 is unavailable for all intents and purposes. Any lens which I'd have to spend at least a couple weeks haunting eBay or KEH to get my mitts on is not really acceptable as an alternative when comparing systems, no matter how good the lens is.




14mm *is* exotic... you don't really absolutely need that focal lens... again... it's want vs need. Nikon doesn't have good quality zooms in the 70-300 range and 80-400 r- which hasn't been updated in ages. It does have the 200-400 for which you have to pay tons of $. Sony on the other hands offers 70-300 and 70-400 both of which are visibly superior to the Nikon counterparts.



The point on the 14 is that I can walk into any Nikon dealer and buy one. Nikon's exotics are more readily available than non-exotic lenses like a 35/2 or 24/2.8 for Sony.

Actually Nikon's got a very good 70-300 available, it's Canon that lacks a truly good 70-300 in the sub-$1000 market. The 70-300VR may not be quite up to the standards of the 70-300G, but it's a damned good lens overall and matches or exceeds the optical performance of some higher-end lenses (like the 70-200 VR). The 70-300G is not a significantly better lens than the 70-300VR and the Nikon is around $300 cheaper. I've seen nothing which indicates more than a marginal difference between the two.

And yes, Sony's 70-400G is superb. Best lens in its range and Nikon's 80-400VR is mediocre at best. The 200-400 on the other hand simply blows the 70-400G out of the water in performance but costs about twice as much. Nikon users have been bitching about this for years. But x0-400 lenses are not exactly bread & butter lenses in a lineup, but rather lenses which round out a lineup. Sony's lineup is much stronger in the telephoto side than it is in the wide-angle side of things. The only thing Sony is really lacking is a 300/4 prime and maybe a 200mm prime.



Nov 28, 2009 at 09:56 PM
James R
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p.12 #12 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


m_appeal wrote:
14mm *is* exotic... you don't really absolutely need that focal lens... again... it's want vs need. Nikon doesn't have good quality zooms in the 70-300 range and 80-400 r- which hasn't been updated in ages. It does have the 200-400 for which you have to pay tons of $. Sony on the other hands offers 70-300 and 70-400 both of which are visibly superior to the Nikon counterparts. I personally think these are very important zooms... and Sony offers better quality in that area.


Nikon is reworking its lens line-up. The Nikon's 35 f2 isn't a great lens. I would be interest to see how the 70-200 VR II matches up to Sony's. I don't have much interest in slow lenses ranging from 70's to 300/400. I have seen few fix wides that match Nikon's 14-24 at comparable mm. But, this is not necessarily a reason to switch, unless it meets your need.

I know you are a big supported of Sony, so, I'm not going to argue one camera against another. However, putting aside cost, the thing that keeps me tethered to Nikon is its CLS lighting. I don't know much about Sony's flash system, but, I would have heard rumbling if superior to Nikon's. There are many things beyond lenses that attract a shooter.



Nov 28, 2009 at 10:38 PM
m_appeal
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p.12 #13 · Image Quality - A850 or D700


James R wrote:
Nikon is reworking its lens line-up. The Nikon's 35 f2 isn't a great lens. I would be interest to see how the 70-200 VR II matches up to Sony's. I don't have much interest in slow lenses ranging from 70's to 300/400. I have seen few fix wides that match Nikon's 14-24 at comparable mm. But, this is not necessarily a reason to switch, unless it meets your need.


Yeah, it depends on your needs... I like to have sharp 70-300 and 70-400 lenses... for daylight shooting these are great if you don't have to haul a 70-200 2.8 or primes.



I know you are a big supported of Sony, so, I'm not going to argue one camera against another. However, putting aside cost, the thing that keeps me tethered to Nikon is its CLS lighting. I don't know much about Sony's flash system, but, I would have heard rumbling if superior to Nikon's. There are many things beyond lenses that attract a shooter.

I'm not as much a big supporter of Sony... I just don't think they are lacking as much as it's being said compared to others or at least they have their own lenses which are the best.. Nikon's flash system should be quite a better than Sony's...or more developed at least.



Nov 28, 2009 at 10:58 PM