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Archive 20097D Focus Issue!!
p.2 #17D Focus Issue!!
Il Medico wrote:
But using the D3, I was able to fill the frame with a dress or black tux and very rarely needed to go off ev-0. It free'd up my work to concentrate on more composition and shot combinations rather than worrying about how the metering system would react to the color of my subject. The new iFCL system got me pretty excited. I dont mind riding the wheel somewhat. The photographer is like the head coach and the camera is the assistant. Its my job to over see things and insure they are done properly. But I dont want to stand over your shoulder all the time. I paid my asistant(1D3) $4500 to do a job so it should be pretty close. That said, it does do good most of the time. But as I shoot weddings alot, I do see quite a bit of solid white or black subjects and this will throw things off quite a bit. It would be nice to allow my "assistant" do more work to help me try do more of mine. So this new system really caught my attention. Just havent heard anyone mention it yet.Here ya go. A great example of Nikon's "superior" color matrix, 3D, whiz bang, makes coffee in the morning, tells you your great, metering.
A situation that should've been easily handled and no doubt my IIN would've handled.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=33164090
Gene
The first image is fine. Its exposed correctly for the vehicle. The second is underexposed for sure, but we dont know all his settings. Was it linked to an AF point that was on a part of the vehicle that was gleaming from sunshine.
Dont know about his camera, but the Nikon versions I used(D3/D700), were almost always spot on. If there off, it was usually just a 1/3 stop overexposed. Why did this piss you off that I said I liked Nikons metering better than Canon's. Did it strike a nerve?
I wasnt trying to. My question/post to the OP was......"What did you think about the metering system of the 7D"....."I am interested because Canons older metering system hasnt been as dependable as Nikon's. It was a question to the "OP" in regards to Canons first attempt at something very similar. It didnt require anyone to get defensive. This is exactly what I was refering to in other posts. That anything even remotely negative and the knives come out. You people need to grow up. You act like somebody is "Talkin bout you momma" Really guys. You take the Canon comments way to personal. Troll? Take a look at yourselves.
PhotogDave wrote
Yeah, that would be good. Using my 1d3 on say a wedding dress will bring a grey dress unless I ride the Ec Wheel up to about +1 Stop or so. If its a black tux, then I have to go the other way(only if they dominate the image)But using the D3, I was able to fill the frame with a dress or black tux and very rarely needed to go off ev-0. It free'd up my work to concentrate on more composition and shot combinations rather than worrying about how the metering system would react to the color of my subject. The new iFCL system got me pretty excited. I dont mind riding the wheel somewhat. The photographer is like the head coach and the camera is the assistant. Its my job to over see things and insure they are done properly. But I dont want to stand over your shoulder all the time. I paid my asistant(1D3) $4500 to do a job so it should be pretty close. That said, it does do good most of the time. But as I shoot weddings alot, I do see quite a bit of solid white or black subjects and this will throw things off quite a bit. It would be nice to allow my "assistant" do more work to help me try do more of mine. So this new system really caught my attention. Just havent heard anyone mention it yet.
A situation that should've been easily handled and no doubt my IIN would've handled.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=33164090
Gene
The first image is fine. Its exposed correctly for the vehicle. The second is underexposed for sure, but we dont know all his settings. Was it linked to an AF point that was on a part of the vehicle that was gleaming from sunshine.
Dont know about his camera, but the Nikon versions I used(D3/D700), were almost always spot on. If there off, it was usually just a 1/3 stop overexposed. Why did this piss you off that I said I liked Nikons metering better than Canon's. Did it strike a nerve?
I wasnt trying to. My question/post to the OP was......"What did you think about the metering system of the 7D"....."I am interested because Canons older metering system hasnt been as dependable as Nikon's. It was a question to the "OP" in regards to Canons first attempt at something very similar. It didnt require anyone to get defensive. This is exactly what I was refering to in other posts. That anything even remotely negative and the knives come out. You people need to grow up. You act like somebody is "Talkin bout you momma" Really guys. You take the Canon comments way to personal. Troll? Take a look at yourselves.
Oct 08, 2009 at 03:26 PM
p.2 #27D Focus Issue!!
Would someone using Canon's metering system find it more predictable though? Because you'd know it behaves (consistently) with lots of black or white in the frame and you can apply the appropriate EC, vs Nikon which interprets the scene and you can't always be sure of the correction, if any. Honest question - don't mean to start a brand war.
Oct 08, 2009 at 04:20 PM
p.2 #37D Focus Issue!!
Good point Greg. I guess if you know everytime that Canon will underexpose white, you can go ahead and add EC to that. In this case it would be more predictable.
I have used Nikon on limited basis, so I dont know how it would act in the long run. Just know everytime I have used it, it worked great. It was like it knew exactley what I was looking at and what I was tryig to do. That said, I usually can anticipate what Canon will do way ahead of time.
Its an angle I havent thought of yet.
I have used Nikon on limited basis, so I dont know how it would act in the long run. Just know everytime I have used it, it worked great. It was like it knew exactley what I was looking at and what I was tryig to do. That said, I usually can anticipate what Canon will do way ahead of time.
Its an angle I havent thought of yet.
Oct 08, 2009 at 04:29 PM
p.2 #47D Focus Issue!!
Great shots.
Sort and then soak those pumpkin seeds in peanut oil and salt for a few hours, drain the oil, throw on a cookie sheet at 400F...
Sort and then soak those pumpkin seeds in peanut oil and salt for a few hours, drain the oil, throw on a cookie sheet at 400F...
Oct 08, 2009 at 04:32 PM
p.2 #57D Focus Issue!!
Please let's keep things civil.
PhotogDave, you should not have been attacked as a "liar". However, you have made a number of rather strong assertions here and on other recent threads without offering much evidence to support them, and when people have disagreed with you (usually in a civil way), you have attacked them for persecuting you, which in turn has caused the discussion to rapidly degenerate into a mud-fest.
I've shot professionally with Nikon gear and have not found Nikon's metering to be significantly better, or worse, than Canon's. It's okay if you disagree with me; there are many reasons to prefer one brand or the other. But when you make statements such as "Canon's older metering system hasn't been as dependable as Nikon's", consider adding the words "for me" at the end. I think you'll find people here will respect your views much more with that approach.
PhotogDave, you should not have been attacked as a "liar". However, you have made a number of rather strong assertions here and on other recent threads without offering much evidence to support them, and when people have disagreed with you (usually in a civil way), you have attacked them for persecuting you, which in turn has caused the discussion to rapidly degenerate into a mud-fest.
I've shot professionally with Nikon gear and have not found Nikon's metering to be significantly better, or worse, than Canon's. It's okay if you disagree with me; there are many reasons to prefer one brand or the other. But when you make statements such as "Canon's older metering system hasn't been as dependable as Nikon's", consider adding the words "for me" at the end. I think you'll find people here will respect your views much more with that approach.
Oct 08, 2009 at 04:39 PM
p.2 #67D Focus Issue!!
PhotogDave wrote:
Yes, its intelligent because it knows what color its metering instead of reading reflective light like Canon and being fooled becasue white reflects more than black.
Prove it. No flash, just simple natural light on white objects. Better still, provide a download link to the original RAW file so that everyone can check the exif data.
PhotogDave wrote:
I am trying to get an idea of as many reports from users as I can. So yes, when I see a 7d thread, I go in. I was lookign around to see if anyone mentions the metering system, they havent so i asked. And yes, I do respond to BS when I see. I dont sugar coat anything for Canon.
You go into every 7D thread, and talk about how superior the Nikon system is, from metering to autofocus. You only have 20+ posts in this forum, and you've spent almost all your time doing exactly that. No, you don't sugar coat anything from Canon. You simply condemn EVERYthing from Canon. An honest critic will offer a more balanced viewpoint, but obviously, as a troll, you have nothing positive to say.
Yes, its intelligent because it knows what color its metering instead of reading reflective light like Canon and being fooled becasue white reflects more than black.
Prove it. No flash, just simple natural light on white objects. Better still, provide a download link to the original RAW file so that everyone can check the exif data.
PhotogDave wrote:
I am trying to get an idea of as many reports from users as I can. So yes, when I see a 7d thread, I go in. I was lookign around to see if anyone mentions the metering system, they havent so i asked. And yes, I do respond to BS when I see. I dont sugar coat anything for Canon.
You go into every 7D thread, and talk about how superior the Nikon system is, from metering to autofocus. You only have 20+ posts in this forum, and you've spent almost all your time doing exactly that. No, you don't sugar coat anything from Canon. You simply condemn EVERYthing from Canon. An honest critic will offer a more balanced viewpoint, but obviously, as a troll, you have nothing positive to say.
Oct 08, 2009 at 05:20 PM
p.2 #77D Focus Issue!!
Looks like yours is fine, nice, Did you shoot Raw or Jpg, Just curious.
Oct 08, 2009 at 05:32 PM
p.2 #87D Focus Issue!!
thw2...I dont condemn EVRYthing, just the latest stuff that sucks. It is what it is. You keep saying every thread. I went in 2 thread. And my comments are, "Why can Nikon make a system with reliable AF and Canon cant"
The new 7D hasnt been others hands a month yet and we already have users posting hear and other places about how the AF isnt what it should be.
How many threads are out there concerning Nikon and their AF issues and lens miscalibrations. Or the older canon stuff like the 1DII etc. Thats all I was saying. Cant I ask Cnon to step it up without you acting like I'm calling your child names.
I really hoped I would see more good comments rather than so many negative reports. Yes, there are many users that say theirs is good, but we dont what they think is good. Yet there are just as many bad posted examples as there are good example shots. You dont see that from Nikon and I didnt used to see it from Canon. I just expected the 7D to get better feedback than it is. Better reports would mean Canon is back and my new 1D4 will give me what I paid for. Its not looking that way right now. Yes, there are some out there that leave the camera to choose the AF point and wonder why the intended point wasnt in focus....I get that. But there are enoguh users complaining to warrant some attention. Thats all.
Metering on Nikon...I dont have to prove it. I know what my experiences were when i used it, and dont need to waste time trying to upload RAW files to web. If you want to see it for yourself, go use one and see.
The new 7D hasnt been others hands a month yet and we already have users posting hear and other places about how the AF isnt what it should be.
How many threads are out there concerning Nikon and their AF issues and lens miscalibrations. Or the older canon stuff like the 1DII etc. Thats all I was saying. Cant I ask Cnon to step it up without you acting like I'm calling your child names.
I really hoped I would see more good comments rather than so many negative reports. Yes, there are many users that say theirs is good, but we dont what they think is good. Yet there are just as many bad posted examples as there are good example shots. You dont see that from Nikon and I didnt used to see it from Canon. I just expected the 7D to get better feedback than it is. Better reports would mean Canon is back and my new 1D4 will give me what I paid for. Its not looking that way right now. Yes, there are some out there that leave the camera to choose the AF point and wonder why the intended point wasnt in focus....I get that. But there are enoguh users complaining to warrant some attention. Thats all.
Metering on Nikon...I dont have to prove it. I know what my experiences were when i used it, and dont need to waste time trying to upload RAW files to web. If you want to see it for yourself, go use one and see.
Oct 08, 2009 at 05:35 PM
p.2 #97D Focus Issue!!
I don't think there is any camera who's metering won't underpose a white dress or overexpose a black tux, is there?
Aren't they all trying to achieve 18% grey?
Aren't they all trying to achieve 18% grey?
Oct 08, 2009 at 05:43 PM
brainiac
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p.2 #107D Focus Issue!!
My experience of using Canon and Nikon professionally is that PhotogDave is right. It also seems to me that his query about this issue is a perfectly reasonable question, even if it is a bit OT. Nikon's 3D colour matrix metering system is more advanced and, I think, more reliable than Canon's, but the 7D has a new kind of colour metering system so it's interesting to see whether exposure requires less supervision than with previous Canons. I use Canon these days, and I do find that I have to constantly monitor exposure to ensure best results. It's doable, but I would prefer the option of cleverer more reliable metering modes. As has been said, because Canons take a lot of driving it means that one is used to doing it. When the Nikons occasionally throw a crazy exposure at you, you sometimes don't notice because you have been lulled into a false sense of security. Ultimately both work pretty well, but I think Canons take a bit more driving. Nikon's scene recognition technology has other advantage than just exposure. The cameras seem to spot faces and focus irises instead of eyelashes. I don't know how it does that, but the only way I can get my 5D2 to do that is by using face detect in liveview.
Edited on Oct 08, 2009 at 05:58 PM · View previous versions
Edited on Oct 08, 2009 at 05:58 PM · View previous versions
Oct 08, 2009 at 05:55 PM
p.2 #117D Focus Issue!!
PhotogDave wrote:
The new 7D hasnt been others hands a month yet and we already have users posting hear and other places about how the AF isnt what it should be.
That is a fair point.
PhotogDave wrote:
How many threads are out there concerning Nikon and their AF issues and lens miscalibrations. Or the older canon stuff like the 1DII etc.
This is not true. There were many threads on focus issues in both Nikon and Canon camps in the past. You need only search for them. Here is the most famous example, started by someone who had lots of problems with Nikon AF calibration long ago.
It is also NOT true that Nikon has a superior AF system. Controlled tests from fotoMagazin (Germany) # 5/2008, p 30ff show they are no better than Sony or Canon.
HOWEVER, it is true that Nikon appears to have better QC than Canon nowadays when it comes to straight-out-of-factory camera/lens calibration. And I agree that Canon should step up their efforts in this area.
PhotogDave wrote:
Metering on Nikon...I dont have to prove it. I know what my experiences were when i used it, and dont need to waste time trying to upload RAW files to web. If you want to see it for yourself, go use one and see.
So, no side-by-side proof, huh?
Edited on Oct 08, 2009 at 06:19 PM · View previous versions
The new 7D hasnt been others hands a month yet and we already have users posting hear and other places about how the AF isnt what it should be.
That is a fair point.
PhotogDave wrote:
How many threads are out there concerning Nikon and their AF issues and lens miscalibrations. Or the older canon stuff like the 1DII etc.
This is not true. There were many threads on focus issues in both Nikon and Canon camps in the past. You need only search for them. Here is the most famous example, started by someone who had lots of problems with Nikon AF calibration long ago.
It is also NOT true that Nikon has a superior AF system. Controlled tests from fotoMagazin (Germany) # 5/2008, p 30ff show they are no better than Sony or Canon.
HOWEVER, it is true that Nikon appears to have better QC than Canon nowadays when it comes to straight-out-of-factory camera/lens calibration. And I agree that Canon should step up their efforts in this area.
PhotogDave wrote:
Metering on Nikon...I dont have to prove it. I know what my experiences were when i used it, and dont need to waste time trying to upload RAW files to web. If you want to see it for yourself, go use one and see.
So, no side-by-side proof, huh?
Edited on Oct 08, 2009 at 06:19 PM · View previous versions
Oct 08, 2009 at 05:55 PM
p.2 #127D Focus Issue!!
IanCale wrote:
Looks like yours is fine, nice, Did you shoot Raw or Jpg, Just curious.
Hi Ian, I've been following you other post a bit; sorry to hear about your troubles.
I do shoot RAW exclusively, though these had few edits. I think on one or two I either pushed or pulled the exposure 1/3 stop, and changed from AWB to Daylight preset in a couple cases.
One thing, though, I've noticed that the colors on my 7D are a bit different than what I get from the 5D2, with a little bit more red/magenta emphasis and maybe slightly stronger saturation. I think for that reason on a few of these images I changed the Color Tone to 1 (slight shift toward green). These are all Picture Style adjustments that DPP recognizes.
Looks like yours is fine, nice, Did you shoot Raw or Jpg, Just curious.
Hi Ian, I've been following you other post a bit; sorry to hear about your troubles.
I do shoot RAW exclusively, though these had few edits. I think on one or two I either pushed or pulled the exposure 1/3 stop, and changed from AWB to Daylight preset in a couple cases.
One thing, though, I've noticed that the colors on my 7D are a bit different than what I get from the 5D2, with a little bit more red/magenta emphasis and maybe slightly stronger saturation. I think for that reason on a few of these images I changed the Color Tone to 1 (slight shift toward green). These are all Picture Style adjustments that DPP recognizes.
Oct 08, 2009 at 06:00 PM
p.2 #137D Focus Issue!!
brainiac wrote:
It also seems to me that his query about this issue is a perfectly reasonable question, even if it is a bit OT.
Agree, and it's something I'm interested in too. He received a reasonable response (from me) and he should not have been attacked. Unfortunately, I think some of the heat from other threads has spilled into this one.
It also seems to me that his query about this issue is a perfectly reasonable question, even if it is a bit OT.
Agree, and it's something I'm interested in too. He received a reasonable response (from me) and he should not have been attacked. Unfortunately, I think some of the heat from other threads has spilled into this one.
Oct 08, 2009 at 06:07 PM
p.2 #147D Focus Issue!!
What really got me confused is, well, I thought you were SUPPOSED to use the EC wheel to...well to get your dresses white and get your tuxes black. Slide film was that way, and I so I just took the zone system and threw it at digital and viola it works just fine on my 30D...
While it would be nice if the camera could read your mind and expose every color in every lighting situation exactly, I'm pretty sure everyone likes their whites a little differently. In the end you're probably either still going to have to use the wheel or process in post.
This is probably less related to metering than it is to the whole concept of exposure compensation in general, but that's my take on it. That being said I've never noticed a problem with my 30D or EOS 1-N, and I much perfer the feeling of driving the camera, rather than me taking a back seat to the machine. As an artist I want to have full control of my work, and using the EC controls is just one more way for me to do that.
While it would be nice if the camera could read your mind and expose every color in every lighting situation exactly, I'm pretty sure everyone likes their whites a little differently. In the end you're probably either still going to have to use the wheel or process in post.
This is probably less related to metering than it is to the whole concept of exposure compensation in general, but that's my take on it. That being said I've never noticed a problem with my 30D or EOS 1-N, and I much perfer the feeling of driving the camera, rather than me taking a back seat to the machine. As an artist I want to have full control of my work, and using the EC controls is just one more way for me to do that.
Oct 08, 2009 at 06:41 PM
p.2 #157D Focus Issue!!
Gary, thanks for posting these images. I've been following the 7D threads here and was beginning to wonder if anyone would ever post images with decent sharpness.... Good to see that in the right hands the 7D can deliver.
Ron
Ron
Oct 08, 2009 at 08:30 PM
p.2 #167D Focus Issue!!
thw2. No, I dont have any side by side comparisons right off hand. It was a time where my Canon stuff was in for repair, a friend loaned me his D3 and lens setup so I could honor a wedding contract. Yeah, I had to send my 1D3 in for the 3rd time, right before a wedding I was contracted to shoot.
I didnt do any side by side comparisons. In fact, It wouldnt have mattered much in the wedding, because I shoot 100% manual exposure with flash in weddings. So depending on the camera to set exposure wasnt needed.
I also shoot sports, and for that during the day, its 100% Av mode. And with the 1d3, it can where your thumb out in some scenes trying to keep exposure right. I shoot Center weighted. And yes, I've tried all and center weighted gives best results.
Having the D3 in my hands for real world use, I decided to see how well it metered. So when I was shooting dress snaps and others, I went in frame filled shot with all white, these shots would require my 1D3 to have the EC uped about +1 to +1 1/3 stop to keep it white. The D3 nailed it set to 0. Then, for the grooms shots, I tried the black tux, and bino, it nailed it. These always fool the Canon meters. Thats all I was saying. Looked like the 7D may have answered that. This is what I asked the OP.
To chuborama> Yes, I like driving the camera too. Its what makes photographers the "photographer". And so, this is part of it when doing weddings. All manual and yes, this will make a photographer out of you.
But, I do this for a living, and when shooting a baseball game and clicking 600 images, I want the Av mode to make my job easier. It can where your thumb out doing this all day. Thats all.
Maybe some heat spilled into here from other threads....dont know why. That was a different thread and nothing was said about that here. I still stand by that though. If I see a trend in one brand for one particular issue, I'll call a spade a spade. Damn making excuses for a company that charges all this money for equipment. The 7D is still questionable so I responded. Listen, I hope like hell that thing turns out to be a ringer. Just started out looking like old times.
I didnt do any side by side comparisons. In fact, It wouldnt have mattered much in the wedding, because I shoot 100% manual exposure with flash in weddings. So depending on the camera to set exposure wasnt needed.
I also shoot sports, and for that during the day, its 100% Av mode. And with the 1d3, it can where your thumb out in some scenes trying to keep exposure right. I shoot Center weighted. And yes, I've tried all and center weighted gives best results.
Having the D3 in my hands for real world use, I decided to see how well it metered. So when I was shooting dress snaps and others, I went in frame filled shot with all white, these shots would require my 1D3 to have the EC uped about +1 to +1 1/3 stop to keep it white. The D3 nailed it set to 0. Then, for the grooms shots, I tried the black tux, and bino, it nailed it. These always fool the Canon meters. Thats all I was saying. Looked like the 7D may have answered that. This is what I asked the OP.
To chuborama> Yes, I like driving the camera too. Its what makes photographers the "photographer". And so, this is part of it when doing weddings. All manual and yes, this will make a photographer out of you.
But, I do this for a living, and when shooting a baseball game and clicking 600 images, I want the Av mode to make my job easier. It can where your thumb out doing this all day. Thats all.
Maybe some heat spilled into here from other threads....dont know why. That was a different thread and nothing was said about that here. I still stand by that though. If I see a trend in one brand for one particular issue, I'll call a spade a spade. Damn making excuses for a company that charges all this money for equipment. The 7D is still questionable so I responded. Listen, I hope like hell that thing turns out to be a ringer. Just started out looking like old times.
Oct 08, 2009 at 10:05 PM
p.2 #177D Focus Issue!!
FWIW My Nikon D90 had more consistent (auto) exposures than any of my Canon cams under a variety of different circumstances.
Oct 09, 2009 at 01:06 AM
p.2 #187D Focus Issue!!
That's the biggest piece of crap ever built, and those pics are complete garbage.
Ah, just kiddin' ya, and now wasting your time!
Ah, just kiddin' ya, and now wasting your time!
Oct 09, 2009 at 01:31 PM