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Archive 2009 · Answers and info from Buff and others

  
 
maczilla
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p.5 #1 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Deezie wrote:
I've been to hundreds of photoshoots for brands ranging from BMW, Nike and fashion brands too numerous to mention, and I have never seen them in use. I, on the other hand, have used Paul's gear for Armani, La Perla, Victoria's Secret and even a GM print ad, but these were smaller jobs with less demands light-wise.


Dear Darryl

You've shot for La Perla? Whoa!

La Perla puts art on women.

Since 2004 I've been searching for a model who'd work with me on a trade basis who has her own La Perla, Aubade, Simone-Perele, Chantelle, Lejaby, or Panache pieces. I've failed miserably in procuring such a privileged model.

Vicky's stuff doesn't look so good compared to many of the premium designers' offerings.

Sorry. It's my ADD and the fact that you mentioned something very dear to my heart!

Not all of what Paul says is biased. Most of his information is simply technical in nature and not even subject to debate. If Paul declares his lights are superior to another brand, obviously that's a matter of opinion and is, of course, subject to debate.

Some of the top fashion and glamour photographers in Atlanta--Matthew Polsfuss (Atlanta Glamour), Anthony Lloyd (AlloyOne), and Keith Sistrunk (Seraphim), shoot with Paul's lights. I've had the privilege of shooting with these fine fellows, I admire their work, and their choice of lighting equipment has worked pretty well for me so far.

I'm not looking for validation from Paul. I'm looking for product information straight from the products' creator, and I'm usually able to separate fact from opinion.

If I didn't want to hear from Paul, I could click the "HIDE ME" button or simply ignore threads whose subjects contain any words related to Paul's endeavors.

La Perla. Oh, my goodness! You lucky, accomplished, talented devil, you!

The only thing I can say about my photography and La Perla is that I was nearly arrested in La Perla in Chicago when I took out my PowerShot G2 to take pictures of the pieces on their hangers in the store! The clerk in the store was fierce about my not taking pictures.

So I'm not even permitted to take a picture of La Perla's designs on hangers, much less fitted properly on a real model.

One day, though, one day...

--Jaddie



Oct 16, 2009 at 08:56 PM
SkankPile
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p.5 #2 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Don't knock Courtney Love...

For all her faults she is still a genius and has a photographic memory. While you are laughing about it.... she just made another 5K

She is a master manipulator, and even when drunk she will win any debate; if she does not pass out first




Oct 16, 2009 at 09:34 PM
shatterkiss
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p.5 #3 · Answers and info from Buff and others


So glad we could get into a semantic disgreement...it's been so long since we've had one!

I think we're all smart enough to realize that the dictionary definition of a word doesn't matter when an industry or culture has accepted a different definition into the vernacular. I mean, we refer to "fashion photographers" instead of "apparel photographers", we call the layout and visual design on a print ad the "creative"...and don't even get me started on terms like "grip" and "gaffer".

Likewise, we use "commercial photographer" to refer to photographers who shoot for projects with commercial purposes: advertisements, packaging, publishing, broadcast and film, etc. It's not a way to differentiate between professional and non-professional, it's a way to differentiate who your clients are and what the purpose of your photos are...commercial vs. private. I don't think it's "esoteric slang", it's just a way I've seen many photographers classify themselves. It's not a value judgment, it just illustrates that someone is in an area of photography with its own specific needs.

Jaddie, I don't think anyone is trying to talk you out of your choice of lighting gear. And you're actually kinda reinforcing my point: Atlanta is one of those secondary photography markets: how many photo rental houses or major rental studios do you have there? By "major" I mean the kind of place that can service a sizable commercial shoot: on-site lighting/camera rental department with significant gear, on-site options for catering and refreshments, conference and client areas, workstations for tethering and client display, aren't going to be confused if you ask about set/strike rates or if they have house options for scenic. Do you have offices of major model/talent agencies there, such that commercial clients can cast their projects without flying models in from the coasts? I'm sure that the photographers that you mentioned are quite talented and great guys, but are they commercial photographers? I couldn't see any evidence of them shooting for commercial clients. The fact that the only web presence for one of those three was ModelMayhem and and OneModelPlace really reinforces what Darryl and I are saying - it tells me that models are the clients they're shooting for more often than not.

As for the idea of bias: it's not that I think Paul is posting biased information, and I don't think I've ever accused him of such. It's just that he's posting here with a more-obvious bias than other members, since he has a vested business interest in the things he's posting about. I don't have any problem with his responding to technical or process or availability questions about his products, but I don't love him coming here to post new product announcements or the like...I think those things clearly fall under the banner of "marketing". If Fred or the moderators were to announce that FM was now advertising-friendly and people were welcome to make posts for their own financial gain then I'd have no problem for it, but other people have had threads removed when it seemed like they were trying to profit from the site.

Okay, looking forward to all the PMs I'm going to get telling me that I should have known better than to wade into a PCB thread.



Oct 17, 2009 at 08:51 AM
RDKirk
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p.5 #4 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Admittedly, I'm coming at this from a coastal and "major market" commercial perspective: we have so much more access to rental houses and major commercial studios that the brands supported by those businesses are the ones that people know. Here in NYC, Profoto is synonymous with "commercial photography lighting"...brands like Speedo and Dynalite are less common here, compared to their foothold in rental houses and studios that I've come across in other parts of the country. Even monolights are less-common here, whereas in other places you'd have to really hunt around to find a pack/head kit. When I've worked in markets...Show more

This geographical "brand-skewing" is a point to emphasize, and as Shatterkiss states, it's not just brand-skewing but even "type-skewing."

Moreover, as he has alluded, the establishment of rental houses, independent repair facilities, and other second-tier businesses that support photography as a local industry will also influence the equipment the photographers in that area use.

Where there is not an entire business tier of such facilities (which indicates that photography is not recognized as a local industry in that area) you probably won't find a preponderance of those brands of equipment.



Oct 17, 2009 at 09:42 AM
Deezie
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p.5 #5 · Answers and info from Buff and others


RD wrote: Moreover, as he has alluded, the establishment of rental houses, independent repair facilities, and other second-tier businesses that support photography as a local industry will also influence the equipment the photographers in that area use.

This is true, but the rental houses carry Profoto because there is a universal familiarity with this brand amongst commercials photographers and assistants. A photographer in Milan can head to NY and rent gear he's intimately familiar with. I was in Tokyo last year and Profoto was readily available. If I wanted to use Speedos or Dynalite, I would've had to bring them with me from LA.

Also, most of the larger studios rent equipment, which is typically a little more than what you'd pay at Samy's or Calumet, but there's a convenience factor of not having to load up at the rental house, then unload at the studio. And it's a real time saver at the end of the day when you don't have pack the gear and make a drive thru LA traffic all for pleasure of unloading the gear again back at the rental house. When I was an assistant, I dreaded the end of the shoot when I had to break down the set, when all I wanted to do was go home and crash on the couch.



Oct 17, 2009 at 10:57 AM
Deezie
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p.5 #6 · Answers and info from Buff and others


And Simon, I'm glad you're coming to LA. It's about time we finally met. Make sure you contact me with the details.

I look forward to it.



Oct 17, 2009 at 11:01 AM
kenyee
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p.5 #7 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Deezie wrote:
I was in Tokyo last year and Profoto was readily available. If I wanted to use Speedos or Dynalite, I would've had to bring them with me from LA.


Isn't that mostly because Profoto is a euro (swedish) company? I.e., they really have to target the US market and any other large markets outside their relatively small country, whereas a US company can just focus on the US market and be decently successful.

Calumet carries Profoto and Speedo gear (although fairly old...no Explorer packs) and they're in most of the major US markets. I'm a bit puzzled at what Speedotron is doing lately...latest releases are the Explorer and 1005 packs (1005 isn't digital) and they're not as flexible as Profoto/Hensel though admittedly a lower tier...



Oct 17, 2009 at 11:46 AM
PeterBerressem
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p.5 #8 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Let's face it: the reason that Profoto (and not Bron, Elinchrom, Briese, Dynalite..) has seized the rental companies has much to do with their very active marketing to those places, i.e. with a highly advanced price structure. Besides being technically top notch, of course.


Oct 17, 2009 at 12:17 PM
shatterkiss
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p.5 #9 · Answers and info from Buff and others


kenyee wrote:
Isn't that mostly because Profoto is a euro (swedish) company? I.e., they really have to target the US market and any other large markets outside their relatively small country, whereas a US company can just focus on the US market and be decently successful.


That doesn't really make sense to me. Paul could certainly address this better than anyone, being that this is his business, but I think it must be exceedingly difficult for a company to break into a foreign market: needing to maintain sales partnerships, producing additional marketing materials and targeting those efforts for a different market, dealing with the additional and more-complex shipping and support logistics. I don't think the prevalence of Profoto in the US is so much an act of necessity as a testament to their products' strengths and how much photographers enjoy working with them.

There are plenty of Euro brands that are popular in their home regions but have failed to make significant inroads in the US despite trying. Bowens comes to mind.

I'm a bit puzzled at what Speedotron is doing lately...latest releases are the Explorer and 1005 packs (1005 isn't digital) and they're not as flexible as Profoto/Hensel though admittedly a lower tier...

I think it's a few things...Speedo has always been a brute-force approach to lighting, similar to the mentality of using gear like big MolePARs on film and television shoots, but photographic lighting has taken a turn towards finesse instead. I still see and read about Speedo being the choice when people need to light large areas (shooting cars in the studio, lighting up large sets or streets, location exteriors, sports arenas, etc.) but people are getting less worried about the amount of light they're producing and more about the quality of that light. Look at how companies like Profoto and Broncolor advertise: it's not about "4800ws in a size that you can carry!" but it's "unparalleled quality of light!" Speedo saw its traditional customer base change and was too late and slow in following.

I think we're seeing the same thing happening with Dynalite - I'm seeing less and less of them around. Rental houses are dropping them from inventory and their best market, location portrait shooters, are moving towards the newer breed of monolights or options like Profoto's Acute2 line, even though it's more expensive.



Oct 17, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Paul Buff
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p.5 #10 · Answers and info from Buff and others


A near parallel situation existed in the pro audio industry that I served from both ends from 1959 to 1980. The vast majority of "commercial" recording was done in multimillion dollar studios where producers took their artists and union players. They bought the most expensive gear in order to attract the top producers, as do the photo rental studios today.

The companies that produced the equipment of necessity charged very high prices as their only customer base was a handful of customers scattered across the same population centers as the the rental photo studios now serve - LA, NYC, Miami, London etc.

Since I was 21 years old when I opened my studio (Pal - Cucamonga, CA) I didn't have a million dollars to spend on equipment, so I invented and designed my own to the tune of $3000. Necessity was indeed the mother of my inventions, coincidental to my later tight association and co-mentorship with Frank Zappa. My loose credo was "I've never been in a real studio, but I know what is supposed to come out". To be clear, my association to Frank was minor to my music biz career and his, but was an important link.

What came out of Pal was a number of gold records and the launching of new artists and recording techniques and equipment, and the eventual birth of what is today the mainstay of the music industry . . . "garage studios" and innovative new blood among forward looking artists and producers with typical studio budgets in the $5000 - $20,000 range.

From there, I went into the career of manufacturing innovative, effective and inexpensive pro audio electronics that successfully bridged the dual marketplace, ranging from the very top commercial studios like Abbey Road, Record Plant, RCA and Columbia to the thousands of sub $50,000 studios that began to spring up, and which became responsible for the vast majority of music you buy today.

Are the multi million dollar studios gone? No . . . within 1/2 mile of our Nashville facility are no less than 31 such studios - largely owned be successful artists. But there are also perhaps 10,000 "garage studios" in Nashville.

The end user doesn't know or care which studio category their fav song came from, but the tendency is that if it's an international pop super star it came from the big dollar studio and if it's a rising funk or rock or rap artist it came from a garage studio. So who do you love and where do your cds and downloads come from? Is it Memorex or Sham Wow?

But the implications go beyond this. Bobby Vee bubble gum records came from big rental studios and union engineers/musicians and Christina and peers sprang from garage studios. The British Revolution of the 60s came in very large part from my equipment, as did Southern and general Rock. So what are the technological roots of what people but today . . . Streisand or The Stones?



Oct 17, 2009 at 01:27 PM
karlpetersson
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p.5 #11 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Hi Paul
My question to you is not really if your lights are used in this or that shoot, I dont really care, I was happy to see a product coming with the features that your Einstein/Max promised.
The 220 power possibility and the short burn time and at a (comparably) very low price.
And I also thought this was a push for a market outside of US since you had looked into the powering situation 110/220.
This really prompts my question why you cancelled overseas orderings for these (and other) products.
I do live in Europe (outside of EU) but working in and out of EU and was hoping to order these products when released.
Well since living in a very small country (Iceland) I am very used to sending and receiving items bought and sold all over the place and I can not personally understand the problem of having to send stuff to clients wherever they are.
Your company is in the business of selling products and clients are clients where ever they are even if your products are a labour of love or a strife.
I hope my tone is not in any way ironic or challenging or similar since I am really puzzled by this and rather disappointed since I was looking forward to new toys.
BTW I am a professional photographer although some commercial clients my bread and butter is editorial food and products and the odd people swinging past my camera.
Please if you do have the time Paul I would love an answer to this.
Your sincerely
Karl



Oct 17, 2009 at 06:39 PM
hoangcong
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p.5 #12 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Wow, I just learned of this today.
I was saving every pennies I could and looked forward to buy a few einstein lights and the cyber commander to learn that today the company will no longer sending overseas?

I am hugely dissappointed by that. The shipping price even high didn't bother me at all because everything related to studio lighting in Australia is overpriced (nearly 2 times the price).

I am still hoping that the dealer in Australia will be known shortly and won't gouge the price like they all do here in Australia.



Oct 17, 2009 at 08:05 PM
maczilla
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p.5 #13 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Dear hoangcong

Why can't a friend here in the States purchase your lights for you and ship them to you? I know shipping would cost a lot, but wouldn't this be feasible?

I'm asking this out of sheer curiosity.

--Jaddie



Oct 17, 2009 at 09:07 PM
hoangcong
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p.5 #14 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Good idea, I have family in the state, but I don't like bothering them for things like that.
I don't really have friends in the state. Just photography buddies and I wouldn't trust them over such a big sum of money :P
I can always rely on ebay, but then you don't really get a discount like when you buy direct (5% discount per light on all accessories)



Oct 17, 2009 at 09:44 PM
Paul Buff
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p.5 #15 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Let me clear . . . we are not developing global lights because "we want to take over the global market". We are doing so because our email is filling up with requests for us to send equipment to all parts of the globe, plus we have a lot of domestic customers who travel the globe. Up until now we have filled all such requests, not because we want more business, but because people have asked us to.

Economics 101: Look at our structure: We are able to offer great value and service in the USA because we sell factory-direct on the simplest of terms. If a light costs us $150 to make and we have another $100 in costs (warranty service, buildings, heat and lights and phones, tech help, advertising, administration, R, wages, health insurance and the all important customer service, etc, we end up with $50 profit.

Now look at what happens when we direct-ship to a far away country: First, the operating cost go up dramatically. Our typical international sale literally takes ten times the time and effort in all administrative and customer service departments to fill and ship an order. We used to add 10% to cover these costs and we were bombarded with angry people who accused us of "hating the rest of the world and ripping them off", even though our profits were far less on these sales than on domestic sales. So we dropped the 10% surcharge and settled for almost zero profit.

Now we put ourselves in your shoes: When we ship to you we both get bombarded with regulations, paperwork, money transfer problems and huge shipping charges. (We already pass on our substantial UPS shipper discounts to you and make nothing on any of the above.) We can't help it if your governments charge you VAT and duties and all that - hey, you voted them in, not me. We're busy enough trying to keep our own government fro doing the same and destroying us in the process.

Now let me introduce the "standard business model" where the manufacture sells through distributors and dealers and reps and all that. We sell the same product to the middlemen for the $285 because this reduces our direct-sales costs a little bit, and we still make $50. But the middlemen, in the standard business model expects to buy at 40% less than what the product retails for so they can all make a profit. Based on this, our $300 product will cost you $475 in the USA. (You have to understand discount VS markup to understand this relationship.)

At this price we would sell many times fewer units so, if we still want to make the same bottom line we would have to raise the price to compensate for the lower number of sales. So distribution chain now pays us $360 and the USA customer pays $600 - a similar price to what they pay for similar equipment from other manufacturers. But it's a vicious downward spiral - our sales fall even further, our customer service is cut and our customers are no longer happy campers.

Now, apply this to International sales, which we must then have pursue aggressively in order to survive. We sell to our distribution chain for $360. After paying for the ocean shipping, import duties paperwork, then add their markup, the Euro MSRP price comes out maybe $700. On top of this you pay VAT - another what . . . 20%? Now your price has risen to $840 and we still make our $50 IF YOU BUY AT THIS PRICE. But you're not going to pay this price, so here come the discounters. They give up a large portion of their profit and sell it to you for $699. In the process, they can't afford customer service so you get a light in a box and little more.

I hope this is sufficiently clear as a demonstration of why our business model is such as it is and why we are not about to change it. Why should we ask our USA customers to pay $600 for the same product they now pay $300 for just so the rest of the world could "get a similar price"? Uhhh duh, I'm sure glad I don't have an MBA where they teach the Standard Business Model so I could sell half as much, all across the globe, and make 10% of the bottom line I now enjoy, and lose all the good customer will I have worked so hard to earn.

That said, we are currently exploring and negotiating distribution that bypasses as many middlemen as possible and which results in good service centers and customer service in two key geographic areas: Australia and Germany. (My last attempt at this in Switzerland resulted in me being robbed of $100,000 by Gotham Audio, We sent them inventory on good faith, they didn't pay us a dime and are now posing as our representative and selling unauthorized CyberSyncs they never paid for on eBay.)

But don't expect this to be utopia . . . you still have your governments and their VATs and duties to deal with, as well as the profit of the distributor and his costs of maintaining repair centers, advertising and many of the costs mentioned above.

Quite simply, you're not going to buy our product at the USA price any more than we're going to buy an Elinchrom at the Pakistan price. The world just doesn't work that way and I can't alienate my USA customers by attempting the standard business model.

I welcome any real world solutions as to how I can better accomplish this. But remember, I'm not a politician who can promise utopia based on empty words and promises.



Oct 17, 2009 at 10:12 PM
Beni
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p.5 #16 · Answers and info from Buff and others


I have 4 AB 800's in the UK, paid all the customs, UPS and fees without a whimper. I now know that were a unit to die as I had recently I cannot have the ability to get another within the week as I did just a few months back. In other words my units have now been orphaned for good. I was just about to buy another two (to be sent to the US actually, my father is lecturing there in December) but now I'm going to sell them off and invest in a company that as a professional I can rely on for support. More than just annoyed.

I'm sorry that the time involved in arranging a UPS pickup and inputing a UK credit card number into your machine was so very expensive.....



Oct 18, 2009 at 01:41 AM
PeterBerressem
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p.5 #17 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Beni, however regrettable P.C.Buff's decision will hit future / potential Einstein customers, you are not affected if I read the following chapter from AB's site correctly: (emphasis by me)
quote: " We regret that we will no longer to be able to accept orders from new customers from outside the USA, Canada and US Possessions (Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands and Guam) after October 16, 2009."



Oct 18, 2009 at 07:22 AM
Paul Buff
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p.5 #18 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Peter, Thank you for being, as you always are, the voice of reason here as on other forums. The decision, as posted on our website, was the result of a lot of thought within my staff that continuing to attempt to fulfill new direct orders to distant parts of the globe is not a sustainable or practical method that neither serves our company nor our customers well.

As you pointed out, we have no intention to "orphan" any customer. Rather, we are diligently pursuing methods to create and implement workable methods to make our products available to those who desire to use them, while protecting all past and current customers. This is the core of our customer relationship.

But, unlike many in our current government, we are not willing to undertake or continue unsustainable policies with promises of utopia for all.

Please note from my post above: "We are currently exploring and negotiating distribution that bypasses as many middlemen as possible and which results in good service centers and customer service in two key geographic areas: Australia and Germany."

Let me restate: Our purpose in developing globally capable products is not to expand our marketplace or our sales area . . . it is simply to create the best products we possibly can. If this results in increased global demand it is my responsibility to do my best to address any such demand in the best possible way I can devise.

Beni, you and many others requested that we sell our product to you, which we did on the only basis we had available at the time. We did so with the same sense of responsibility we feel toward any other customer. If this annoys you and you cannot understand the complex obstacles I detailed above there is little I can do about that other than to assure you exactly the same support you have received in the past.

Sarcasm such as "I'm sorry that the time involved in arranging a UPS pickup and inputing a UK credit card number into your machine was so very expensive....." isn't helpful and shows a lack of understanding of the very detailed explanation of all the factors and real issues I offered above.



Oct 18, 2009 at 12:40 PM
maczilla
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p.5 #19 · Answers and info from Buff and others


Dear hoangcong

hoangcong wrote:
Good idea, I have family in the state, but I don't like bothering them for things like that.


Bother them.

Maybe one day you can return the favor.

--Jaddie



Oct 18, 2009 at 01:47 PM
Cuervo79
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p.5 #20 · Answers and info from Buff and others


I'm in Central America which is not close to Australia nor Germany
There was a thread on flickr about this but as I stated there the statemet was too broad to know anything for sure.
Maybe its just me being dense but even though it says " We regret that we will no longer to be able to accept orders from new customers from outside the USA, Canada and US Possessions (Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands and Guam) after October 16, 2009." I still have the bad feeling I'm going to be left out in the future.

I can't understand why international customers would whine about the 10% international surcharge, I had no problem with it and take it into account that almost anything I buy to ship directly to my country will be charged taxes when it comes in, or handling charges.
Mr. Buff can you please confirm "Will you still sell new products to old international customers?"



Oct 18, 2009 at 05:35 PM
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