brainiac wrote:
So do you leave it uncocked after each frame since there is always time to cock it when you see a picture? ;-)
You must look pretty funny walking around with your film cameras attached to your face mate. I'll cock if I see a picture yes, takes about as long to bring the camera up to eye level, if you practice for a LONG time maybe one day you can do the two things at once like I do.
In all seriousness, I'm not a very wasteful shooter on film or digital. Using a soft release and keeping an M camera cocked is a bad idea unless you don't mind lots of blurry/meaningless/black shots on the roll.
thrice wrote:
You must look pretty funny walking around with your film cameras attached to your face mate. I'll cock if I see a picture yes, takes about as long to bring the camera up to eye level, if you practice for a LONG time maybe one day you can do the two things at once like I do.
In all seriousness, I'm not a very wasteful shooter on film or digital. Using a soft release and keeping an M camera cocked is a bad idea unless you don't mind lots of blurry/meaningless/black shots on the roll.
I wonder if there would also be any risk of film curl or loss of flatness with a cocked frame sitting there waiting to be shot? I know this can be an issue with medium format film but I would think the thicker/stiffer backing of 35mm would really make this a non issue.
Is the shutter release of the more current M cameras so soft that you would really have to worry about accidental shots? I don't recall that when handling an M3.
No, there are no real issues with leaving an M with shutter cocked. At worst, you might fire off a frame in your bag, but I've not had that happen in the last 3 years since I've been shooting one. More likely is running down the meter battery because of a slight depressing of the shutter button, but if you flip your camera to B, you can avoid that.
I've been reading about usability issues with the M8. I don't take such complaints seriously because they usually come from people who simply dont use their cameras enough to form a reliable opinion, but there is one particular report that keeps me from dreaming about the m8 and consequently the m9: http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq/Page_1.html
To summarise this guys' problems (leaving out the ones that have positively been corrected like IR filters and crop factor):
1) Retarded card loading that requires 3 hands.
2) Inaccurate framelines.
3) Retarded placing of the self timer button which makes it easy to accidentally activate just by hanging the camera from your neck and therefore making it unusable for a few crucial seconds.
4) Generally non-recessed and easy to accidentally push buttons when the camera is hanging from your neck. This guy ended up covering most buttons with gaffers tape to create some buffer.
5) Retarded exposure compensation via the menus rather than the dials, too slow.
6) Wildly fluctuating auto white balance ruined many of his photos (he normally shoots jpegs, no time for editing).
7) Automatic exposure equally unreliable.
8) No shutter speed visible when shooting in M mode, you have to take the camera off your eye and look at the top plate, then look through the VF to compose again.
8) Visible noise from ISO800.
9) Slow buffer, up to a full minute to clear completely when shooting raw+jpeg (which was a necessity because he needed jpeg, but could not always trust it due to unreliable auto exposure and auto white balance).
10) Slow start up times and overall sluggishness at every press of a button or spin of a dial. He said the overall feel of the camera at times ranged from feeling "partly underwater" to "wrapped up in foam and fully submerged in gel"
11) Build quality of modern Leicas generally and the M8 and M7 specifically. To quote from his report:
I purchased an M7 new in 2005. When I payed for it through a well-known Manhattan dealer, he said to me, “Well you know you have to buy two because they break down all the time. You’ll need one as a back-up.” I laughed, thinking he was joking. He was not. “My customers bring them back here all the time and I have to send them to Leica for repair,” he told me.
As he warned, I shot four rolls of film with the M7 before it locked up. Leica returned it after a few weeks but it quit on me in Sierra Leone and again in Darfur. The camera had to be sent back to Leica four times but still was undependable; the meter fluctuated wildly. After nearly a year, much of which the M7 spent at Leica’s repair facility in Germany, Leica refunded my money and I gave them back their M7.
My first M8 was similarly glitchy. The camera would frequently randomly overexpose several frames by as much as 4 stops, rendering the images completely unusable. I had to reset the M8 by turning it off and on. In Jan. 2008, Fotocare in Manhattan where I purchased the camera, gave me a new M8.
Now dont tell me that the guy is overreacting or is biased, because he is a long time NY Times photographer, long time and current Leica user, winner of the 2008 World Press Photo award (amoung a number of other awards), 3 times Pulitzer price nominee and all around kick ass photographer with an astounding portfolio. This is exactly the guy I want to listen to, not a collector who frequents rangefinderforum and has 20 Leicas in sealed bags.
All his problems maybe sound like not such a big deal if you take 20 photos a month, or work on a tripod. You have all the time in the world to baby your Leica. But for intensive, everyday use in unpredictable conditions they are a huge deal and the way a see it this is exactly the reason why a logical person would buy a Leica in the past: reliability and intuitive operation in a small package.
So, my question is, how many of these things have been fixed in the M9? Not improved, fixed. This is a $7k camera with some pretty big shoes to fill that we're talking about, there are no excuses.
Spyro P. wrote:
So, my question is, how many of these things have been fixed in the M9? Not improved, fixed. This is a $7k camera with some pretty big shoes to fill that we're talking about, there are no excuses.
2) Inaccurate framelines.
Fixed with M8.2
3) Retarded placing of the self timer button which makes it easy to accidentally activate just by hanging the camera from your neck and therefore making it unusable for a few crucial seconds.
Still can be set accidentally but now has a "0" setting so that there's no delay.
6) Wildly fluctuating auto white balance ruined many of his photos (he normally shoots jpegs, no time for editing).
fixed with newer M8 firmware
8) Visible noise from ISO800.
Improved in M9
9) Slow buffer, up to a full minute to clear completely when shooting raw+jpeg (which was a necessity because he needed jpeg, but could not always trust it due to unreliable auto exposure and auto white balance).
10) Slow start up times and overall sluggishness at every press of a button or spin of a dial. He said the overall feel of the camera at times ranged from feeling "partly underwater" to "wrapped up in foam and fully submerged in gel"
M9 is faster, how much IDK. Also has dedicated ISO button instead of menu item, and database of M lenses so that they can be selected manually if your lens isn't coded.
Other complaints, IDK. M8 is best for a RAW workflow.
The M8.2 supposedly improved on a few of these issues (noticeably more accurate framing at longer distances for instance) and it is known that early M8's suffered terrible reliability issues which seems like the time period the above user had M8's. That said, digital M rangefinders are not made to endure harsh environments (no weather-sealing) and I see this as not only a professional user issue but also as an "Image" issue for Leica at the moment. If someone wants a reliable M rangefinder for harsh environments such as might be encountered by the above photo-journalist, they should probably stick with an older, mechanical film version. Otherwise, take a professional DSLR.
kidtexas wrote:
More likely is running down the meter battery because of a slight depressing of the shutter button, but if you flip your camera to B, you can avoid that.
So you can really be ready for the shot!
Actually I can do stepless all the way up to 1/500th in bulb, instinctively.
I fail to see your point. Maybe you're just joking.
It's only a problem when your camera is really stowed in a packed bag for a trip or something. On an M6/MP, you can flip it to B when you put your camera in a packed bag since it turns off the meter (a loosely packed bag doesn't risk hitting the shutter button), on an M7 you can just flip the switch to off. I do the same for my other cameras - turn them off when they are put away and I'm not shooting them. My 1V would do the same thing, except if I ran the battery down, it wouldn't fire at all, unlike my M.
When I'm out shooting, I just leave the camera on. And no, I'm not under the delusion that if my camera is packed away in its bag and I see something I want a picture of, that I can get it to my eye for a picture in under a second or anything. It's easy to switch it on as you bring it to your eye - with a full manual M, you are most likely going to be setting the shutter anyway, so it's not a problem.
>>>...but if you flip your camera to B, you can avoid that.
>>So you can really be ready for the shot!
>I fail to see your point. Maybe you're just joking.
sorry - forgot smiley. take it for granted from now on that all posts by me are tongue in cheek. ;-)
A soft release makes accidental shots more likely.
All my best shots happen that way.
The only time I can see this being a problem is during the wedding vows if you had a flash attached. Otherwise accidental shots cost nothing. The method of changing memory cards will be more of an issue for me. One day I'm going to drop that fast-change bottom plate on a stone floor at the wrong moment: Klang!!!
You've seen the quick access replacement bottom plates right Richard?
Way I see it, is the battery and the card both get about 400 shots (16GB) on the M9, so I buy two cards, two batteries (total of 3) and I should have pretty much any day covered. 2 swaps max doesn't hurt me, I take the bottom plate off after 36 shots with my M6
Incidentally I pay for my M9 tomorrow (god I had to sell a lot ) and hopefully pick it up late oct/early nov. I'm 3rd in line for a camera but first in line for a silver.
thrice wrote:
You've seen the quick access replacement bottom plates right Richard?
No - do you have a link?
>Way I see it, is the battery and the card both get about 400 shots (16GB) on the M9, so I buy two cards, two batteries (total of 3) and I should have pretty much any day covered.
You are a better photographer than me then - I sometimes come home with 5000 shots of a wedding.
>Incidentally I pay for my M9 tomorrow (god I had to sell a lot ) and hopefully pick it up late oct/early nov. I'm 3rd in line for a camera but first in line for a silver.
I am very excited for you. Although I probably won't get one, I am envious of the M9 in a way that I never was for the M8, as so many of the limitations have been fixed. Can't wait to see some of your results...
Ahh I see well anyway, for those who don't know, I've explained what I meant now. Haha.
5000 shots? wow. I'd hate to go through all of that. 400 shots/day would have me covered plus some. The m9 looks cool. Too bad I can't afford/justify one.
You are a better photographer than me then - I sometimes come home with 5000 shots of a wedding.
No I think we just have a different subject matter and shooting style, a bride would likely be much more pleased with yours.
I am very excited for you. Although I probably won't get one, I am envious of the M9 in a way that I never was for the M8, as so many of the limitations have been fixed. Can't wait to see some of your results...
I was never really envious of the M8, I liked the 100% sharpness, manual precision and rangefinderness but I abhor dealing with crop factors.
I am getting slightly sick thinking of how much money I'm handing over tomorrow. I managed to wrestle a Zeiss ZM 21mm C-Biogon for a ripper of a price with the M9. So soon I can argue about microcontrast, "3D-ness" and lifelike rendering as well!
Dan, dont think about it man. If it makes you happy it makes you happy, end of the story*
*When you finally get it and be done with the pixel peeping, you are allowed exactly 3 posts to tell us how awesome your Leica is before you become the target of my cyber wrath
) and hopefully pick it up late oct/early nov. I'm 3rd in line for a camera but first in line for a silver.
well anyway, for those who don't know, I've explained what I meant now. Haha.