This topic is in the 2009 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2009The APO thread
p.11 #2The APO thread
PSquared63 ... that's not even funny, totally cruel ... showing me a Leica APO 800 5.6 ... pure torture.
I couldn't even dream a lens like that ... let alone ever conceive shooting with one.
I couldn't even dream a lens like that ... let alone ever conceive shooting with one.
Nov 11, 2009 at 10:40 PM
p.11 #3The APO thread
Wow.. 800/5.6! It will be very difficult to handle this lens while sooting in low light.
Nov 11, 2009 at 10:56 PM
p.11 #4The APO thread
Picked up a CV 125mm Lanthar and was just doing some test shots. Here's one that caught my eye.
Shot @ f/2.5
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Nov 12, 2009 at 07:37 AM
p.11 #5The APO thread
Voigtlander 125 @ f2.5
http://www.robert-chisholm.com/fred_miranda/IMG_9187_v125.jpg
100% crop
http://www.robert-chisholm.com/fred_miranda/IMG_9187_v125_crop.jpg
http://www.robert-chisholm.com/fred_miranda/IMG_9187_v125.jpg
100% crop
http://www.robert-chisholm.com/fred_miranda/IMG_9187_v125_crop.jpg
Dec 30, 2009 at 12:33 AM
p.11 #6The APO thread
Technically, a mirror lens is APO 
So, I hope it's OK to intrude a bit w/ a converted FD 500/8 ... taken today from my rooftop in Tokyo:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4258837625_8481e08cbc_o.jpg
Another one from this great lens
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4259594078_656b7093db_o.jpg
And I cannot resist ... one more
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2741/4259593542_942a0ff022_o.jpg
It's not that I care for the weird bokeh, but this lens is fun to play with and manual focus is sooo smoooth. Glad I have LiveView though.
So, I hope it's OK to intrude a bit w/ a converted FD 500/8 ... taken today from my rooftop in Tokyo:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4258837625_8481e08cbc_o.jpg
Another one from this great lens
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4259594078_656b7093db_o.jpg
And I cannot resist ... one more
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2741/4259593542_942a0ff022_o.jpg
It's not that I care for the weird bokeh, but this lens is fun to play with and manual focus is sooo smoooth. Glad I have LiveView though.
Jan 09, 2010 at 09:30 AM
p.11 #7The APO thread
Paul Yi wrote:
CV 90/3.5....
I think this is one of the sharpest lens for the money.
+1. I'm not a fan of the bokeh (this is where I think the CV 180 has it over it's shorter APO siblings) but I am a fan of everything else this lens does.
CV 90/3.5....
I think this is one of the sharpest lens for the money.
+1. I'm not a fan of the bokeh (this is where I think the CV 180 has it over it's shorter APO siblings) but I am a fan of everything else this lens does.
Jan 09, 2010 at 12:32 PM
p.11 #8The APO thread
AlexTokyo wrote:
Technically, a mirror lens is APO
It's not that I care for the weird bokeh, but this lens is fun to play with and manual focus is sooo smoooth. Glad I have LiveView though.
Those are beautiful, Alex. What is it about the mirror design that makes it technically APO?
Technically, a mirror lens is APO
It's not that I care for the weird bokeh, but this lens is fun to play with and manual focus is sooo smoooth. Glad I have LiveView though.
Those are beautiful, Alex. What is it about the mirror design that makes it technically APO?
Jan 09, 2010 at 12:34 PM
p.11 #9The APO thread
Those are beautiful, Alex. What is it about the mirror design that makes it technically APO?
Brad
Mirror lenses, as long as they have no lenses elements - just mirrors, do not refract light and therefore do not creat chromatic error (different colors of light focused at different points). APO lenses are corrected for three wavelengths (colors) of the light spectrum (generally red, green, and blue). Meaning that these three colors will be brought to focus at the same point. Lens designers use glass with differing refractive indicies to bend the light (remember the sciince experiments in school using a prism to split white light into the different components of color?). This is where all those terms like UD, LD, AD, ED come from describing, the types of glass used in the optical design. Wikapedia has a pretty do explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apochromat
Back to your question: As long as a mirror lens uses no lenses they do not refract the light and introduce color error (chromatic abberation). Actually most photography mirror optics do include refractive lenses elements to correct other optical problems in the overall design and can actually have chromatic aberations. Its just easier for the optical designers to keep the chromatic errors small and unnoticable because the lenses in mirror optics do not need to do a lot of light bending and can also use expensive glass since they are small.
Sorry for the long winded answer, but optical terms are often poorly understood and erroniously used by folks that should know better like on popular lens testing site that equates chromatic aberations to anti-reflective lens coatings rather than the true source which is the designers choice of glass and the optical formulation to correct aberations.
Ed
Brad
Mirror lenses, as long as they have no lenses elements - just mirrors, do not refract light and therefore do not creat chromatic error (different colors of light focused at different points). APO lenses are corrected for three wavelengths (colors) of the light spectrum (generally red, green, and blue). Meaning that these three colors will be brought to focus at the same point. Lens designers use glass with differing refractive indicies to bend the light (remember the sciince experiments in school using a prism to split white light into the different components of color?). This is where all those terms like UD, LD, AD, ED come from describing, the types of glass used in the optical design. Wikapedia has a pretty do explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apochromat
Back to your question: As long as a mirror lens uses no lenses they do not refract the light and introduce color error (chromatic abberation). Actually most photography mirror optics do include refractive lenses elements to correct other optical problems in the overall design and can actually have chromatic aberations. Its just easier for the optical designers to keep the chromatic errors small and unnoticable because the lenses in mirror optics do not need to do a lot of light bending and can also use expensive glass since they are small.
Sorry for the long winded answer, but optical terms are often poorly understood and erroniously used by folks that should know better like on popular lens testing site that equates chromatic aberations to anti-reflective lens coatings rather than the true source which is the designers choice of glass and the optical formulation to correct aberations.
Ed
Jan 09, 2010 at 01:18 PM
p.11 #10The APO thread
freaklikeme wrote:
Those are beautiful, Alex. What is it about the mirror design that makes it technically APO?
Thx for the kind words Freaklikeme.
From the little I understand, in Mirror lenses, light paths of different colors are the same when reflected from a surface. An extension of this property is that mirror lenses have no IR focus shift (real APO). Obviously, in a dioptric design (normal lens) light paths of different colors are refracted and focus at different points, creating chromatic aberration. So, Mirror lenses are kind of the poor man's APOs. It comes at a cost though: vignette, fixed and small aperture and for the worst ones poor sharpness. FDs were among the best (w/ Zeiss), and I find sharpness of my copy excellent. I suspect the dark image which made these lenses hard to focus before LiveView might be a contributor to their (undeserved IMO) bad rep on sharpness.
[Edit]: I was typing this while Ed sent his reply. Thx Ed for the more complete explanation. Actually, in typical Mirror lenses there is a corrective element (for spherical aberrations) so one could argue they do have CA. But then, is there a truly APO lens? OK, I'll stop hijacking this great thread. These lenses & pics are fantastic.
Those are beautiful, Alex. What is it about the mirror design that makes it technically APO?
Thx for the kind words Freaklikeme.
From the little I understand, in Mirror lenses, light paths of different colors are the same when reflected from a surface. An extension of this property is that mirror lenses have no IR focus shift (real APO
). Obviously, in a dioptric design (normal lens) light paths of different colors are refracted and focus at different points, creating chromatic aberration. So, Mirror lenses are kind of the poor man's APOs. It comes at a cost though: vignette, fixed and small aperture and for the worst ones poor sharpness. FDs were among the best (w/ Zeiss), and I find sharpness of my copy excellent. I suspect the dark image which made these lenses hard to focus before LiveView might be a contributor to their (undeserved IMO) bad rep on sharpness.[Edit]: I was typing this while Ed sent his reply. Thx Ed for the more complete explanation. Actually, in typical Mirror lenses there is a corrective element (for spherical aberrations) so one could argue they do have CA. But then, is there a truly APO lens? OK, I'll stop hijacking this great thread. These lenses & pics are fantastic.
Jan 09, 2010 at 01:54 PM
p.11 #11The APO thread
Alex - Greeting to your beautiful country
I suppose by the strick definition (focusing three wavelengths and correcting spherical aberation) there are "true" apo designs but in optics, like life, everything is a compromise and the marketing guys love to throw terms around to confuse the consumer. I'm waiting for:
Are you shooting more and enjoying less? Then try the 100% Natural Organic APO Lens - with reduced arsenic!
Optical perfection is a goal not a reality but there is alway - Good Enough.
Best Regards and Happy New Year
Ed
I suppose by the strick definition (focusing three wavelengths and correcting spherical aberation) there are "true" apo designs but in optics, like life, everything is a compromise and the marketing guys love to throw terms around to confuse the consumer. I'm waiting for:
Are you shooting more and enjoying less? Then try the 100% Natural Organic APO Lens - with reduced arsenic!
Optical perfection is a goal not a reality but there is alway - Good Enough.
Best Regards and Happy New Year
Ed
Jan 09, 2010 at 02:18 PM
p.11 #12The APO thread
Edward Gill wrote:
Lens designers use glass with differing refractive indicies to bend the light (remember the sciince experiments in school using a prism to split white light into the different components of color?). This is where all those terms like UD, LD, AD, ED come from
You are mixing up refractive index and dispersion here. Dispersion means that every color of light sees a different refractive index and is refracted under a slightly different angle. All those acronyms UD, LD, AD, ED (which are really marketing terms) have the same meaning, namely low dispersion. Different colors of light are dispersed less by this glass.
High refractive index glass is also used but that is not the same thing. Sometimes they are used i.c.w. low dispersion glass to correct CA.
Lens designers use glass with differing refractive indicies to bend the light (remember the sciince experiments in school using a prism to split white light into the different components of color?). This is where all those terms like UD, LD, AD, ED come from
You are mixing up refractive index and dispersion here. Dispersion means that every color of light sees a different refractive index and is refracted under a slightly different angle. All those acronyms UD, LD, AD, ED (which are really marketing terms) have the same meaning, namely low dispersion. Different colors of light are dispersed less by this glass.
High refractive index glass is also used but that is not the same thing. Sometimes they are used i.c.w. low dispersion glass to correct CA.
Jan 09, 2010 at 07:29 PM
p.11 #13The APO thread
Thank you very much for the explanation, Ed. I like long-winded answers that lead to better understanding. I appreciate it.
Alex- thanks for sharing the experience. I've been curious about mirror lenses, but have never come up with an use for one that required the longer focal lengths. But your examples have a wonderful crispness to them. And great color.
Alex- thanks for sharing the experience. I've been curious about mirror lenses, but have never come up with an use for one that required the longer focal lengths. But your examples have a wonderful crispness to them. And great color.
Jan 10, 2010 at 12:53 AM
p.11 #14The APO thread
AhamB wrote:
You are mixing up refractive index and dispersion here. Dispersion means that every color of light sees a different refractive index and is refracted under a slightly different angle. All those acronyms UD, LD, AD, ED (which are really marketing terms) have the same meaning, namely low dispersion. Different colors of light are dispersed less by this glass.
High refractive index glass is also used but that is not the same thing. Sometimes they are used i.c.w. low dispersion glass to correct CA.
Yeah, there are different glasses like fluorite crystal and etc. used to combat achromatism (CA) but there is also achromatic designs (doublets, triplets, etc., basically, two or more lens elements glued together) and aspherical shapes used for the same reasons.
Edward Gill wrote
Lens designers use glass with differing refractive indicies to bend the light (remember the sciince experiments in school using a prism to split white light into the different components of color?). This is where all those terms like UD, LD, AD, ED come fromHigh refractive index glass is also used but that is not the same thing. Sometimes they are used i.c.w. low dispersion glass to correct CA.
Yeah, there are different glasses like fluorite crystal and etc. used to combat achromatism (CA) but there is also achromatic designs (doublets, triplets, etc., basically, two or more lens elements glued together) and aspherical shapes used for the same reasons.
Jan 10, 2010 at 02:46 AM
p.11 #15The APO thread
At the risk of being pedantic, dispersion and refractive index are related--generally, the higher a material's RI, the more likely it is to have greater dispersion as well. But dispersion is indeed a distinct phenomenon, best described as variable RI as a function of wavelength.
What makes correction of CA possible is the combination of two materials with different dispersive qualities in such a way that there is still a net refractive power. This was traditionally accomplished using a crown/flint glass doublet and is called an "achromat" design. The correction occurs near the extremes of the visible spectrum, so that red and blue wavelengths converge at the image plane. But green wavelengths are not made to converge at the same point with this design. This explains why we see the green/magenta "bokeh fringing" in out of focus areas of wide-aperture shots. The achromat design puts red+blue = magenta, versus green on opposite sides of the focal plane.
This is where a material like fluorite comes into play. Fluorite exhibits what is called extraordinary partial dispersion. It is a low-dispersion material, but more than this, its dispersion as a function of visible wavelength is different than for typical glasses. If you plot the dispersion as a function of wavelength, the curve is much flatter whereas the curve for a typical glass is more sloped. As a result of the different shape of these curves, it is possible to construct an optical group that corrects the secondary spectrum to a greater extent than possible with the flint/crown doublet. In essence, one calculates the necessary curvatures to focus three wavelengths together. This is called an "apochromat" design.
With increasing optical complexity and variety of materials, it is possible to construct a "superachromat" design that corrects secondary spectrum at four points in the spectrum. But these are extremely costly and the benefit in most photographic applications is small in comparison. One application of such highly correct lenses, however, is in infrared photography, where correction for the visible spectrum is often done at the expense of the IR spectrum, making many lenses unsuitable for IR imaging. Greater correction in this portion of the spectrum would make a lens suitable for both visible and IR applications.
Although Canon is the only manufacturer to use crystalline fluorite elements to control CA, I presume other optics manufacturers have used fluorite-doped glasses to great effect. Sadly many of Canon's lenses, although employing fluorite, don't seem to correct very well for longitudinal chromatic aberration, and I believe this is in part due to other design considerations. A true "APO" lens should display almost no noticeable transverse CA and very minimal longitudinal CA (green/magenta bokeh fringes in high-contrast, out of focus areas).
What makes correction of CA possible is the combination of two materials with different dispersive qualities in such a way that there is still a net refractive power. This was traditionally accomplished using a crown/flint glass doublet and is called an "achromat" design. The correction occurs near the extremes of the visible spectrum, so that red and blue wavelengths converge at the image plane. But green wavelengths are not made to converge at the same point with this design. This explains why we see the green/magenta "bokeh fringing" in out of focus areas of wide-aperture shots. The achromat design puts red+blue = magenta, versus green on opposite sides of the focal plane.
This is where a material like fluorite comes into play. Fluorite exhibits what is called extraordinary partial dispersion. It is a low-dispersion material, but more than this, its dispersion as a function of visible wavelength is different than for typical glasses. If you plot the dispersion as a function of wavelength, the curve is much flatter whereas the curve for a typical glass is more sloped. As a result of the different shape of these curves, it is possible to construct an optical group that corrects the secondary spectrum to a greater extent than possible with the flint/crown doublet. In essence, one calculates the necessary curvatures to focus three wavelengths together. This is called an "apochromat" design.
With increasing optical complexity and variety of materials, it is possible to construct a "superachromat" design that corrects secondary spectrum at four points in the spectrum. But these are extremely costly and the benefit in most photographic applications is small in comparison. One application of such highly correct lenses, however, is in infrared photography, where correction for the visible spectrum is often done at the expense of the IR spectrum, making many lenses unsuitable for IR imaging. Greater correction in this portion of the spectrum would make a lens suitable for both visible and IR applications.
Although Canon is the only manufacturer to use crystalline fluorite elements to control CA, I presume other optics manufacturers have used fluorite-doped glasses to great effect. Sadly many of Canon's lenses, although employing fluorite, don't seem to correct very well for longitudinal chromatic aberration, and I believe this is in part due to other design considerations. A true "APO" lens should display almost no noticeable transverse CA and very minimal longitudinal CA (green/magenta bokeh fringes in high-contrast, out of focus areas).
Jan 10, 2010 at 03:32 AM
p.11 #16The APO thread
wickerprints ...
Thanks ... nice explanation, I've got a better clue now as to why the magenta / green oof's show up. I had figured out that it was one or the other, but it didn't quite make sense to me why ... now it does.
Thanks.
Thanks ... nice explanation, I've got a better clue now as to why the magenta / green oof's show up. I had figured out that it was one or the other, but it didn't quite make sense to me why ... now it does.
Thanks.
Jan 10, 2010 at 08:49 AM
p.11 #17The APO thread
Benjamain
Yes you are correct that my reference to refractive indices (note I used the plural form of index intentionally) really should have been tied to dispersive power (low or high) which is the technical term to describe how differing transmissive materials effect the velocity of differing wavelengths of light passing through the material (refractive index at a specific wavelength).
I had not intended my answer for those like yourself who are apparently highly knowledgeable of optics and optical theory but for someone who wanted to why a reflective optical system (more correctly a catadioptric system) would be an Aprochromat. I assumed the person asking the question might remember light refraction and prisms from early science classes and so kept the terms on a basic level.
All said, you are absolutely correct concerning UD, SLD, ED, LD glass being marketing terms for low dispersive power material (glass, crystal, plastic, etc), meaning the refractive indices vary within a narrow band as a function of the light wavelength.
Thanks for the catch
Ed
Yes you are correct that my reference to refractive indices (note I used the plural form of index intentionally) really should have been tied to dispersive power (low or high) which is the technical term to describe how differing transmissive materials effect the velocity of differing wavelengths of light passing through the material (refractive index at a specific wavelength).
I had not intended my answer for those like yourself who are apparently highly knowledgeable of optics and optical theory but for someone who wanted to why a reflective optical system (more correctly a catadioptric system) would be an Aprochromat. I assumed the person asking the question might remember light refraction and prisms from early science classes and so kept the terms on a basic level.
All said, you are absolutely correct concerning UD, SLD, ED, LD glass being marketing terms for low dispersive power material (glass, crystal, plastic, etc), meaning the refractive indices vary within a narrow band as a function of the light wavelength.
Thanks for the catch
Ed
Jan 10, 2010 at 02:18 PM
p.11 #18The APO thread
Benjamin
Apologize for the typo in your name. I need to proof read before posting.
Ed
Apologize for the typo in your name. I need to proof read before posting.
Ed
Jan 10, 2010 at 02:21 PM
p.11 #19The APO thread
wickerprints
There are so many variables to deal with in a complex optical systems, I am truly amazed at the price/performance ratio we see in modern camera lenses. The new high density sensors are also really the pushing limits. I find it no surprise that manufacturers have apparently chosen to allow processor correctable aberrations such as light falloff and distortion to focus (no pun intended) on resolution and lens compactness and let the computer chips correct aberrations in camera. We live in amazing times and really are blessed with fantastic imagining tools.
Ed
There are so many variables to deal with in a complex optical systems, I am truly amazed at the price/performance ratio we see in modern camera lenses. The new high density sensors are also really the pushing limits. I find it no surprise that manufacturers have apparently chosen to allow processor correctable aberrations such as light falloff and distortion to focus (no pun intended) on resolution and lens compactness and let the computer chips correct aberrations in camera. We live in amazing times and really are blessed with fantastic imagining tools.
Ed
Jan 10, 2010 at 02:44 PM
p.11 #20The APO thread
Bifurcator
Now you're taking! Give me a good clean hand ground triplet and a starry night to enjoy photons on the retina.
We don't need no stinking 17 element UD AD SLD (sounds like a mental condition or a drug add) magic pipes.
Old school and fading.
Ed
P.S. You related to Euler or just hit a fork in the road?
Now you're taking! Give me a good clean hand ground triplet and a starry night to enjoy photons on the retina.
We don't need no stinking 17 element UD AD SLD (sounds like a mental condition or a drug add) magic pipes.
Old school and fading.
Ed
P.S. You related to Euler or just hit a fork in the road?
Jan 10, 2010 at 02:51 PM