This topic is in the 2009 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2009Canon 7D
p.28 #1Canon 7D
Tom_W wrote:
The 7d will NOT, in any possible way, be aps-h. Canon plans to eliminate that form factor, so it will either be FF or APS-C (and thus ef-s compatible). As mentioned by jrscls, if it is slated to sell for the same price as the 5dm2 then it cannot be a full frame with better AF and faster frame rate - even with a 12mp sensor. Most likely case based on what has been leaked, is that it will be an APS-C with popup flash and probably better AF than the 50d but NOT 1d AF. What that means exactly I don't know, perhaps a 19 point layout with assist only in the center.There's several possibilities, and here's one. The 1-series merges into one full-frame, fast pro camera. The 1D Mk IV or whatever it might be called. 20+ mpx, all the speed and capability of the 1D3 (with an improved focus system) but with a full-frame sensor.
Then, the 7D becomes the new 1.3X, small-footprint sports/action camera with 12-15 mpx, 6-8 fps, and a nice pro AF system.
Probably wishful thinking on my part - I wouldn't mind a fast camera to use along side my 5D2, but I don't like what the APS-C has to offer. Even when I had a 40D...Show more →
Something like this might work without taking a direct hit against the 1Ds series..
1Ds MK IV - 31mp 1.0x Sensor - ISO 50-6400 5FPS 45pt AF $7500
1D MK IV - 16mp 1.0x Sensor - ISO 50-25,600 10FPS 45pt AF $4500
7D - 12mp 1.3x Sensor - ISO 50-25,600 8 FPS 19pt AF $1900
timbop wrote
OK, why not:The 7d will NOT, in any possible way, be aps-h. Canon plans to eliminate that form factor, so it will either be FF or APS-C (and thus ef-s compatible). As mentioned by jrscls, if it is slated to sell for the same price as the 5dm2 then it cannot be a full frame with better AF and faster frame rate - even with a 12mp sensor. Most likely case based on what has been leaked, is that it will be an APS-C with popup flash and probably better AF than the 50d but NOT 1d AF. What that means exactly I don't know, perhaps a 19 point layout with assist only in the center.
Then, the 7D becomes the new 1.3X, small-footprint sports/action camera with 12-15 mpx, 6-8 fps, and a nice pro AF system.
Probably wishful thinking on my part - I wouldn't mind a fast camera to use along side my 5D2, but I don't like what the APS-C has to offer. Even when I had a 40D...Show more →
Something like this might work without taking a direct hit against the 1Ds series..
1Ds MK IV - 31mp 1.0x Sensor - ISO 50-6400 5FPS 45pt AF $7500
1D MK IV - 16mp 1.0x Sensor - ISO 50-25,600 10FPS 45pt AF $4500
7D - 12mp 1.3x Sensor - ISO 50-25,600 8 FPS 19pt AF $1900
Aug 25, 2009 at 10:38 AM
p.28 #2Canon 7D
rscheffler wrote:
Maybe they are capable, but put into perspective, it's a very small (and relatively crowded) market segment for such an investment. One that they've already made effectively smaller with the 1Ds series and the photographers who have chosen it over medium format digital.
For that exact reason, Canon wouldn't necessarily need to focus on the same features as the EF system. With the EF system, they had to focus on a myriad of different subjects, shooters and locales. However, the medium format crowd is, as you put it, "small", meaning that any medium format system they design and create need not be quite as general purpose as the EF system and probably only geared toward people that use medium format for their work (landscape photographers or studio photographers, for instance).
rscheffler wrote:
It would probably make more sense for Canon to focus such efforts on a micro-EF format system to compete against m4/3, which as a consumer/prosumer format, has a much larger potential customer base.
I still am not quite sure about the viability of the micro 4/3 standard.
Maybe they are capable, but put into perspective, it's a very small (and relatively crowded) market segment for such an investment. One that they've already made effectively smaller with the 1Ds series and the photographers who have chosen it over medium format digital.
For that exact reason, Canon wouldn't necessarily need to focus on the same features as the EF system. With the EF system, they had to focus on a myriad of different subjects, shooters and locales. However, the medium format crowd is, as you put it, "small", meaning that any medium format system they design and create need not be quite as general purpose as the EF system and probably only geared toward people that use medium format for their work (landscape photographers or studio photographers, for instance).
rscheffler wrote:
It would probably make more sense for Canon to focus such efforts on a micro-EF format system to compete against m4/3, which as a consumer/prosumer format, has a much larger potential customer base.
I still am not quite sure about the viability of the micro 4/3 standard.
Aug 25, 2009 at 10:43 AM
p.28 #3Canon 7D
rscheffler wrote:
Maybe they are capable, but put into perspective, it's a very small (and relatively crowded) market segment for such an investment. One that they've already made effectively smaller with the 1Ds series and the photographers who have chosen it over medium format digital.
kakomu wrote:
For that exact reason, Canon wouldn't necessarily need to focus on the same features as the EF system. With the EF system, they had to focus on a myriad of different subjects, shooters and locales. However, the medium format crowd is, as you put it, "small", meaning that any medium format system they design and create need not be quite as general purpose as the EF system and probably only geared toward people that use medium format for their work (landscape photographers or studio photographers, for instance).
For sure, they could do it. I wonder though if it would be worth the effort/expense. In addition to it being a small market, it is also one in which customers are extremely picky. But it could also depend on how they want to approach such a market. My assumption is it would be with a system to take on the top brands. But it could also be along the lines of what Mamiya tried to pull off - better than DSLRs and good enough against the likes of Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad/Imacon, etc. to attract market share through a lower price point. Medium format digital for the masses... I'd be very surprised though to see something like this.
rscheffler wrote:
It would probably make more sense for Canon to focus such efforts on a micro-EF format system to compete against m4/3, which as a consumer/prosumer format, has a much larger potential customer base.
kakomu wrote:
I still am not quite sure about the viability of the micro 4/3 standard.
I thought the same way, but the most recent 4/3 cameras & sensors seem to be pretty good for what they are. I also think a lot of people want the quality of DSLR but are still put off by the size of the cameras and lenses, so there is potential appeal for the average consumer. But conversely, there seems to be significant interest in the system now with niche groups such as alt lens enthusiasts, and this is where I hope a manufacturer realizes the opportunity with some interesting new equipment.
Aug 25, 2009 at 11:05 AM
p.28 #4Canon 7D
abam wrote
nikon seems to get along fine with only one 'pro' camera.
Doesn't Nikon still have the D3 and the D3X? And before that the D1, D2, and the DxH and DxX, and D2HS. . . .
nikon seems to get along fine with only one 'pro' camera.
Doesn't Nikon still have the D3 and the D3X? And before that the D1, D2, and the DxH and DxX, and D2HS. . . .
Aug 25, 2009 at 11:26 AM
p.28 #5Canon 7D
kakomu wrote:
R&D and then manufacturing costs (whole new, specific assembly lines, possybly even new factory) for this would be very, very high...It's not like Canon isn't capable. They did the same thing in the 1980s with the EF system.
Actually this would be far more difficult and costly than the FD-EOS changeover as an entirely new set of optical designs would need to be created and manufactured for a larger format sensor. When Canon went with the EOS mount, 95% of the optical designs for the lenses remained the same and only the housing for the lenses had to be redesigned.
This is the route Leica is taking with the S2, however Leica seems to take a "Cost is No Object" attitude which may or may not work for them this time.
fraga wrote
They would need a whole new set of lenses for that.R&D and then manufacturing costs (whole new, specific assembly lines, possybly even new factory) for this would be very, very high...
Actually this would be far more difficult and costly than the FD-EOS changeover as an entirely new set of optical designs would need to be created and manufactured for a larger format sensor. When Canon went with the EOS mount, 95% of the optical designs for the lenses remained the same and only the housing for the lenses had to be redesigned.
This is the route Leica is taking with the S2, however Leica seems to take a "Cost is No Object" attitude which may or may not work for them this time.
Aug 25, 2009 at 11:34 AM
p.28 #6Canon 7D
ACElkins wrote:
This is the route Leica is taking with the S2, however Leica seems to take a "Cost is No Object" attitude which may or may not work for them this time.
Depending on how this move works out for Leica, this might be a new avenue for the big SLR companies to emulate in the future. We'll see what develops.
This is the route Leica is taking with the S2, however Leica seems to take a "Cost is No Object" attitude which may or may not work for them this time.
Depending on how this move works out for Leica, this might be a new avenue for the big SLR companies to emulate in the future. We'll see what develops.
Aug 25, 2009 at 11:47 AM
p.28 #7Canon 7D
ACElkins wrote:
Actually this would be far more difficult and costly than the FD-EOS changeover as an entirely new set of optical designs would need to be created and manufactured for a larger format sensor. When Canon went with the EOS mount, 95% of the optical designs for the lenses remained the same and only the housing for the lenses had to be redesigned.
This is the route Leica is taking with the S2, however Leica seems to take a "Cost is No Object" attitude which may or may not work for them this time.
IMHO it looks like Leica just doesn't know what to do or where to go so it has tried to position itself between the 35mm FF dslr's and the 'Blad type medium format cameras.
Personally, I think it will fail and Leica will not exist in ten years. Too small a fan-base, too much better cheaper opposition
As far as Canon's future 1 series is concerned I think it will be a hybrid allowing either full frame or a cropped sensor on the same camera with a fast shutter for sport, as to me the 1D series has dug itself a hole - it can't take EF-S lenses and it can't easily get a wideangle either.
David
Actually this would be far more difficult and costly than the FD-EOS changeover as an entirely new set of optical designs would need to be created and manufactured for a larger format sensor. When Canon went with the EOS mount, 95% of the optical designs for the lenses remained the same and only the housing for the lenses had to be redesigned.
This is the route Leica is taking with the S2, however Leica seems to take a "Cost is No Object" attitude which may or may not work for them this time.
IMHO it looks like Leica just doesn't know what to do or where to go so it has tried to position itself between the 35mm FF dslr's and the 'Blad type medium format cameras.
Personally, I think it will fail and Leica will not exist in ten years. Too small a fan-base, too much better cheaper opposition
As far as Canon's future 1 series is concerned I think it will be a hybrid allowing either full frame or a cropped sensor on the same camera with a fast shutter for sport, as to me the 1D series has dug itself a hole - it can't take EF-S lenses and it can't easily get a wideangle either.
David
Aug 25, 2009 at 12:02 PM
p.28 #8Canon 7D
I think Leica will be around longer though probably not under the current ownership. The name and lens catalog is gotta be worth enough for someone to consider reinventing Leica.
Leica needs to find a reason for someone to buy a Leica other than because its a Leica.
Leica needs to find a reason for someone to buy a Leica other than because its a Leica.
Aug 25, 2009 at 02:32 PM
p.28 #9Canon 7D
Tom_W wrote:
The 7d will NOT, in any possible way, be aps-h. Canon plans to eliminate that form factor, so it will either be FF or APS-C (and thus ef-s compatible). As mentioned by jrscls, if it is slated to sell for the same price as the 5dm2 then it cannot be a full frame with better AF and faster frame rate - even with a 12mp sensor. Most likely case based on what has been leaked, is that it will be an APS-C with popup flash and probably better AF than the 50d but NOT 1d AF. What that means exactly I don't know, perhaps a 19 point layout with assist only in the center.There's several possibilities, and here's one. The 1-series merges into one full-frame, fast pro camera. The 1D Mk IV or whatever it might be called. 20+ mpx, all the speed and capability of the 1D3 (with an improved focus system) but with a full-frame sensor.
Then, the 7D becomes the new 1.3X, small-footprint sports/action camera with 12-15 mpx, 6-8 fps, and a nice pro AF system.
Probably wishful thinking on my part - I wouldn't mind a fast camera to use along side my 5D2, but I don't like what the APS-C has to offer. Even when I had a 40D...Show more →
either:
new 7D APS-H line starts at 14-15MP, 10fps and stays at APS-H for a long while until it hits nearing 30MP.
5D line stays FF and keeps bumping up MP until it hits 50, stays with slow fps.
Canon avoids small body, fast, FF for a long, long time.
or:
we have a 5D2 now at FF, 21MP, 4fps, old AF
get a new 7D at APS_H,14-15MP,10fps, at least partly new AF
then in two years they dump both the old 5D line and the new 7D and combine into a 3D at 24MP, 8fps, largely new AF
while pushing 1DsIV at 30MP to the 1DsV at 50MP a half year later than the 3D arrival. And the 1D5 goes to FF, 24MP, 12fps, utterly new AF, integrated grip, 100% VF, total weather sealing, etc. I like the 3D.
OR:
these rumors are crap and thus any speculation based on them is....
Edited on Aug 25, 2009 at 03:11 PM · View previous versions
timbop wrote
OK, why not:The 7d will NOT, in any possible way, be aps-h. Canon plans to eliminate that form factor, so it will either be FF or APS-C (and thus ef-s compatible). As mentioned by jrscls, if it is slated to sell for the same price as the 5dm2 then it cannot be a full frame with better AF and faster frame rate - even with a 12mp sensor. Most likely case based on what has been leaked, is that it will be an APS-C with popup flash and probably better AF than the 50d but NOT 1d AF. What that means exactly I don't know, perhaps a 19 point layout with assist only in the center.
Then, the 7D becomes the new 1.3X, small-footprint sports/action camera with 12-15 mpx, 6-8 fps, and a nice pro AF system.
Probably wishful thinking on my part - I wouldn't mind a fast camera to use along side my 5D2, but I don't like what the APS-C has to offer. Even when I had a 40D...Show more →
either:
new 7D APS-H line starts at 14-15MP, 10fps and stays at APS-H for a long while until it hits nearing 30MP.
5D line stays FF and keeps bumping up MP until it hits 50, stays with slow fps.
Canon avoids small body, fast, FF for a long, long time.
or:
we have a 5D2 now at FF, 21MP, 4fps, old AF
get a new 7D at APS_H,14-15MP,10fps, at least partly new AF
then in two years they dump both the old 5D line and the new 7D and combine into a 3D at 24MP, 8fps, largely new AF
while pushing 1DsIV at 30MP to the 1DsV at 50MP a half year later than the 3D arrival. And the 1D5 goes to FF, 24MP, 12fps, utterly new AF, integrated grip, 100% VF, total weather sealing, etc. I like the 3D. OR:
these rumors are crap and thus any speculation based on them is....
Edited on Aug 25, 2009 at 03:11 PM · View previous versions
Aug 25, 2009 at 02:54 PM
p.28 #10Canon 7D
I can't see any way that the 60D or whatever the 50D successor is named, to be anything other than 1.6x crop. It will be interesting to see what they do with the upgrade. Just adding video I don't think will be enough, unless they make it a true hybrid and not handicapped like the 5Dm2. I can't see anymore megapixels jammed in, so they may just warm it over with video(minor upgrades like the 20D-30D-40D). If that's all they do, then I think they will still have a sales problem with it, so a revamped AF system may be in the works.
Aug 25, 2009 at 03:03 PM
p.28 #11Canon 7D
"Leica needs to find a reason for someone to buy a Leica other than because its a Leica."
"...too much better cheaper opposition"
that's painting with a fairly broad brush, but i can't disagree.
"...too much better cheaper opposition"
that's painting with a fairly broad brush, but i can't disagree.
Aug 25, 2009 at 03:14 PM
p.28 #12Canon 7D
Ah well. Might as well put my thought in to it. Canon disregards whatever Nikon has but this might be different. I am pulling figures out of the hat but:
Full Frame 15 MP, 12MP 1.6 sensor so it will have a dual purpose. 3FPS on full frame and 6 on crop. 9 point AF because that is what Canon does. Must not forget video which will be 720 not 1080.
Full Frame 15 MP, 12MP 1.6 sensor so it will have a dual purpose. 3FPS on full frame and 6 on crop. 9 point AF because that is what Canon does. Must not forget video which will be 720 not 1080.
Aug 25, 2009 at 03:31 PM
p.28 #13Canon 7D
Brit-007 wrote:
Ah well. Might as well put my thought in to it. Canon disregards whatever Nikon has but this might be different. I am pulling figures out of the hat but:
Full Frame 15 MP, 12MP 1.6 sensor so it will have a dual purpose. 3FPS on full frame and 6 on crop. 9 point AF because that is what Canon does. Must not forget video which will be 720 not 1080.
you can't get 12MP 1.6 out of 15MP FF (well unless they only read every few pixels out of it or forceably bin it on the FF side)
Ah well. Might as well put my thought in to it. Canon disregards whatever Nikon has but this might be different. I am pulling figures out of the hat but:
Full Frame 15 MP, 12MP 1.6 sensor so it will have a dual purpose. 3FPS on full frame and 6 on crop. 9 point AF because that is what Canon does. Must not forget video which will be 720 not 1080.
you can't get 12MP 1.6 out of 15MP FF (well unless they only read every few pixels out of it or forceably bin it on the FF side)
Aug 25, 2009 at 03:40 PM
p.28 #14Canon 7D
Maybe 1D4 is fast FF with low mp, 1DS4 slow FF high mp, 7D 1.3x fast small form, 5D2.........50D.....
I could see this, closer to Nikon line up
I could see this, closer to Nikon line up
Aug 25, 2009 at 05:58 PM
p.28 #16Canon 7D
kahren wrote:
they need to kill 1.3x already
I love my 1.3x crop. I will be downright ecstatic if the 7d is 1.3x
11-16 f2.8 tokina = great wide angle (down to 12mm)
35mm prime = my normal lens
and I am a happy man. Now, give me that in a package smaller than a 1d and I am grinning ear to ear.
But I bet the 7d will be 1.6x crop
they need to kill 1.3x already
I love my 1.3x crop. I will be downright ecstatic if the 7d is 1.3x
11-16 f2.8 tokina = great wide angle (down to 12mm)
35mm prime = my normal lens
and I am a happy man. Now, give me that in a package smaller than a 1d and I am grinning ear to ear.
But I bet the 7d will be 1.6x crop
Aug 25, 2009 at 06:26 PM
p.28 #17Canon 7D
Canon needs to at least give us a bigger APS-C sensor size. A couple of mm may not seem much but when the pixel size itself is in microns, that will definitely make a difference.
Aug 25, 2009 at 06:56 PM
p.28 #18Canon 7D
Going back to Leica
......there are rumors that the new M9 will borrow the 5dMKII full frame sensor. Now these are just rumors, but if this is the case, it might be an exchange of strengths between Leica and Canon. Leica for their legendary lenses and Canon for their amazing sensor technology. So yeah, maybe we will see an S2 sensor modified by Canon in a 1 series body using Leica S2 lenses.
......there are rumors that the new M9 will borrow the 5dMKII full frame sensor. Now these are just rumors, but if this is the case, it might be an exchange of strengths between Leica and Canon. Leica for their legendary lenses and Canon for their amazing sensor technology. So yeah, maybe we will see an S2 sensor modified by Canon in a 1 series body using Leica S2 lenses.
Aug 25, 2009 at 07:26 PM
p.28 #19Canon 7D
n0b0 wrote:
Canon needs to at least give us a bigger APS-C sensor size. A couple of mm may not seem much but when the pixel size itself is in microns, that will definitely make a difference.
Didn't they call that APS-H
Canon needs to at least give us a bigger APS-C sensor size. A couple of mm may not seem much but when the pixel size itself is in microns, that will definitely make a difference.
Didn't they call that APS-H
Aug 25, 2009 at 07:41 PM
p.28 #20Canon 7D
abam wrote:
"Leica needs to find a reason for someone to buy a Leica other than because its a Leica."
"...too much better cheaper opposition"
that's painting with a fairly broad brush, but i can't disagree.
People do have a reason to buy a Leica other than the name. They're the only company that makes professional-quality rangefinder-focusing cameras with small, fast, high quality lenses, a system that excels at unobstrusive documentary photography. Nobody else really does this (discounting Cosina). It's a niche market, true, but there's still a market.
The Leica S-system is a complete flyer and will either be a brilliant move or an albatross. They are attempting to change the playing field, and I can't say that I blame them. Leica spent 40 years trying (unsuccessfully) to compete in 35mm SLRs against Japan, Inc., and the R-system is mostly a footnote in history today.
"Leica needs to find a reason for someone to buy a Leica other than because its a Leica."
"...too much better cheaper opposition"
that's painting with a fairly broad brush, but i can't disagree.
People do have a reason to buy a Leica other than the name. They're the only company that makes professional-quality rangefinder-focusing cameras with small, fast, high quality lenses, a system that excels at unobstrusive documentary photography. Nobody else really does this (discounting Cosina). It's a niche market, true, but there's still a market.
The Leica S-system is a complete flyer and will either be a brilliant move or an albatross. They are attempting to change the playing field, and I can't say that I blame them. Leica spent 40 years trying (unsuccessfully) to compete in 35mm SLRs against Japan, Inc., and the R-system is mostly a footnote in history today.
Aug 25, 2009 at 07:42 PM