Daniel Heineck wrote:
There are 3 FF sensors on the market, and the products they are delivered in are differentiated on body and read-out/data processing electronics, primarily.
D3/D700
1ds3/5dII
D3X/A900
The 1DsIII and the 5DII do not use the same sensor.
It would cost Canon just about as much money to produce the old 5D chips as it does for them to make the 5d II/1ds3 chip.
Actually, it would cost even more. Canon has said before that they reduce costs by innovatively redesigning the assembly process. That's why they almost never re-use a sensor, even when the new sensor has all the same apparent characteristics as an older sensor--they have redesigned everything else in the process.
Although the cost of silicon may not have decreased, they have redesigned the assembly and other aspects to make actual production cheaper with the newer cameras--cheaper than re-using an old sensor.
The 7D could very well be Canon's answer to Nikon's D300s (which Canon has certainly known about). So if this is true (or anything else in this thread), the 7D is to the 5DII what the D300s is to the D700. I expect a 1.6 crop 5DII wIth similar focus. High hopes with Canon lead to big disappointments twice a year. I would rather be excited about a camera than disappointed when my dream camera doesn't come to fruition. I would be shocked if a FF for less money than 5DII is announced.
RDKirk wrote:
Actually, it would cost even more. Canon has said before that they reduce costs by innovatively redesigning the assembly process. That's why they almost never re-use a sensor, even when the new sensor has all the same apparent characteristics as an older sensor--they have redesigned everything else in the process.
Although the cost of silicon may not have decreased, they have redesigned the assembly and other aspects to make actual production cheaper with the newer cameras--cheaper than re-using an old sensor.
Thank you for making my point clearer. I was trying to lump that into my subsequent statement of "economies of scale".
32067dlm wrote:
..... High hopes with Canon lead to big disappointments twice a year. I would rather be excited about a camera than disappointed when my dream camera doesn't come to fruition. .........
So are you hoping for the better, expecting the worst?
I think Canon will do right this time - they have to!! They can't rest in their laurels for too long. In one big swoop, Nikon and Sony took a considerable chunk of the full-frame market, an area where Canon was the only choice for a long time. IF, and this is a big IF, the new 7D is a crop-camera, it's only saving grace will be 45 pt AF and video - this is the only way it can compete with the D300s. In any case, full-frame is a very popular format right now, 5DMKII are sold-out most everywhere you look, I'm sure Canon is well aware of that................. plus, full-frame camera = L lenses galore!!! More ka-ching for Canon!! Maybe they got smart and realized that the 5D/24-105L kit were being bought by the bundle and the lens sold for cheap - hence the 28-135IS kit
32067dlm wrote:
The 7D could very well be Canon's answer to Nikon's D300s (which Canon has certainly known about). So if this is true (or anything else in this thread), the 7D is to the 5DII what the D300s is to the D700. I expect a 1.6 crop 5DII wIth similar focus. High hopes with Canon lead to big disappointments twice a year. I would rather be excited about a camera than disappointed when my dream camera doesn't come to fruition. I would be shocked if a FF for less money than 5DII is announced.
Isn't a 1.6x version of the 5D II called a 50D? Aside from video, full frame (and the extra res), what does the 5DII have over the 50D now?
Daniel Heineck wrote:
From everything I've read... they're the same exact thing until the color filter/microlenses.
Same sensor in terms of fabrication--same mask set, same processing parameters.
I'm not going to put much into this argument, but there is evidence scattered around the net to conclude otherwise. Including this from Canon's 5DII/50D White Paper;
"EOS 5D Mark II’s new 21.1-megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor: The advanced single-plate CMOS sensor in the EOS 5D Mark II achieves the highest performance of any sensor in the Canon DSLR lineup. It shares many traits with the CMOS sensor found in the flagship EOS-1Ds Mark III, including its 36mm x 24mm (35mm format) size, approximately 21.1 effective megapixels with 6.4ìm pixel pitch, a 4-channel data readout, and low-pass filter design. However, this second-generation sensor offers increased sensitivity and improved noise reduction circuitry that enables standard ISO’s ranging from 100 to 6400 and expanded ISO ranges from 50 to 25,600."
Jman13 wrote:
Isn't a 1.6x version of the 5D II called a 50D? Aside from video, full frame (and the extra res), what does the 5DII have over the 50D now?
32067dlm wrote:
I'm not going to put much into this argument, but there is evidence scattered around the net to conclude otherwise. Including this from Canon's 5DII/50D White Paper;
"EOS 5D Mark II’s new 21.1-megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor: The advanced single-plate CMOS sensor in the EOS 5D Mark II achieves the highest performance of any sensor in the Canon DSLR lineup. It shares many traits with the CMOS sensor found in the flagship EOS-1Ds Mark III, including its 36mm x 24mm (35mm format) size, approximately 21.1 effective megapixels with 6.4ìm pixel pitch, a 4-channel data readout, and low-pass filter design. However, this second-generation sensor offers increased sensitivity and improved noise reduction circuitry that enables standard ISO’s ranging from 100 to 6400 and expanded ISO ranges from 50 to 25,600."...Show more →
The bolded parts are coming from the Digic 4 and whatever analog to digital converters they're using off-sensor (but still make up the sensor processing chain). The part at the top describes the actual sensor chip, which for all intensive purposes, seems to be the same. Canon just lumped them all together. Hope this helps.
12 megapixels is perfect......with situational awareness
brainiac wrote:
I'm on your side Will. I have been shooting weddings for 15 years and I find preposterous the suggestion that I should settle for 12 Mpixels when my current 21 Mpixel cameras are the best wedding cameras I have ever used. Real weddings are punctuated by moments of perfect panic as the bride and groom accidentally leave the church early (happened to me a month ago), or some quaintly-dressed page boy decides to perform improvised modern dance in the aisle during the vows. The congregation are getting their shots of it, but you only have your 85 f1.2 mounted and the memory card just filled in your other body. You've got 2 seconds to react, if that. Give me 21 Mpixels every time, because it gives me the versatility to crop when I don't have time to change lenses, or when the bride's brother gets dumped by his Russian girlfriend and they don't want her in the shot any more. I switch to sraw when it makes sense, but shoot 21 when it counts. I do not intend to be one of those wedding photographers that people bitch about because I cynically do the minimum....Show more →
I suspect is may be a few things. Yes, the current position of the on/off switch is horrible. Second, this may be a sign of an even bigger screen on the back. This may also relate to the OLED screen rumors. Any bigger LCD screen would drain the battery quicker. A large OLED screen would be more efficient. It'll be interesting to see how Canon treats the button layout on the back. It's hilarious when they intentionally screw with the buyer like in the case of the 5D to the 5D2. They intentionally change the positioning which is a little boost to say replace all your cameras with the new ones. The best was putting the trash button where the old play button was.
brainiac wrote:
You must be joking. With a zoom mounted, the front of the camera hangs downwards when the camera is carried over the shoulder or around the neck, and that bloody power switch on the 5D1/2 bumps against your body and switches itself off 50 times a day. Canon will have changed that switch position because so many people complain.
roanjohnnyc wrote:
So are you hoping for the better, expecting the worst?
In a word, yes.
It's a fallacy to think that we (here at FM) define the market for Canon. In fact, most 5DII or 1DsIII or 1DIII or Rebel XSi users have probably never even been here. We simply come here to get the scoop on new releases, to bitch when things don't go as expected, and to daydream about the what-if's. We do not define the market. I suspect the execs at Canon have a much better feel for the market than all of us combined. I want my A-La-Carte camera too, but I suspect I'll take what Canon has to offer. Just wait around and you'll see what a big disappointment the next camera is - no matter what's released - regardless of the lack of availability on store shelves! Remember Canon's marketing leading up to the announcement of the 5DII? Remember the slowly revealed image? Where is that for this release? If this (7D) is to be such a ground breaking camera, where is the marketing? This camera too will be considered warmed over by many here, and purchased by many more.
Of course we define the market. It would be an even bigger fallacy if Canon execs don't visit the forum to do market research - I mean, photography forums are a gold mine to gauge the current mood of the market.
As far as leaks are concerned, I think Canon was frankly embarassed with the intro of the 5DMarkII. First, Nikon stole the full-frame thunder when they introduced the D700, and then, Nikon stole the video thunder by introducing the D90, and on top of that, Sony stole the thunder for the high-res full frame sensor (24 vs 21). To add insult to injury, Canon did nothing to improve the current 5D AF........... It really wasn't until Vincent Laforet did the "Reverie" video that the tide started to turn for the 5DII.
.............but you are right though, even with the disappointments, we still have no choice but to get the introduced camera anyways!! Canon lenses are just that good!!
Of course we define the market. It would be an even bigger fallacy if Canon execs don't visit the forum to do market research - I mean, photography forums are a gold mine to gauge the current mood of the market.
Not really. 'Way too much noise in the noise:data ratio, and in no way are forums any kind of valid statistical sample.
As far as leaks are concerned, I think Canon was frankly embarassed with the intro of the 5DMarkII.
Sales are exceeding manufacturing capacity. How is that an "embarssment?" Laforet's video was out before the camera was even widely available, so how could it have "turned the tide?" The camera was hit the first day of release.
I agree with roanjohnnyc. FM's attitude mirrors what I see with non-FMers. And it is funny how a VIDEO made with a still camera is what got everyone so jived about the 5D2. And in regards to Canon's lenses......yup! That's the only thing keeping me from jumping ship to Nikon. My 24-70, 50L and 85L are simply that outstanding. It's funny, I was visiting a buddy of mine's studio yesterday and he had a 2nd photographer shoot for him that shot with Nikon gear (this studio shoots Canon). The studio manager and I got to chatting about it, and she started oozing love for the Nikon's images when compared to Canon. "I don't have to do anything to them. They just look awesome straight out of the camera" was what she said.
