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Archive 2009 · Leica S2

telyt
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Leica S2

Pixel Perfect wrote:
But it's lcd is almost entry level, having 1/2 the pixels of most DSLR's these day. You can see no expense is being spared.

It's an organic LCD: no backlight required, faster response, more accurate colors.

Aug 17, 2009 at 08:37 AM

telyt
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Leica S2

I wrote:
It's an organic LCD: no backlight required, faster response, more accurate colors.

Correction: only the display on the top panel is an OLCD. the back display is a regular LCD.

Aug 17, 2009 at 07:58 PM

RCicala
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Leica S2

Some more information released to dealers yesterday in question-answer format, in case anyone's interested:

What's the resolution of A/D converter inside the camera? 14bit

Does the camera support pixel binning? No, because the sensor does not support pixel binning.

What are the ISO steps? ISO1/2 steps

Does it support DNG+JPEG writing?
It does support DNG + JPG. The high quality JPGs are created in the camera, the only medium format camera to do so. The LEICA S2 has slots for both Compact Flash and SD, with an option for saving RAW format Adobe DNG data onto Compact Flash and JPEG to the SD card, simultaneously.

Does it support exposure bracketing? Yes

What about EV compensation range? 1/2 steps

Is there a AE lock button? There are “soft” buttons on the S2 that may be programmed to suit the photographer. AE, AF and/or AE+AF lock. And there is AE lock on the release button. The shutter release button has three positions: 1st position is auto focus, 2nd is AE lock, third position is the shutter release.

Is AF micro adjustment user-controllable? No. Perfect adjustment are done a the factory. Each lens has individually. adjusted data stored internally.

Does it support WB bracketing? No

Can I set WB using Kevin temperature? Absolutely yes.

Is there an orientation sensor? Yes

Moiré detection and suppression using digital signal processing? Only for JPG not for DNG

No special raw processing needed? This is correct. You can pull the images directly into Lightroom or any software program reading DNG format.

Is it possible to enlarge the image and check focusing on the back LCD? Yes.

Does it work under -20 °C, or may be -30 °C? this is very important to me because winter is simply too long, too brutal in my area. It has so far been tested to about –10 C and further testing is indicated to confirm lower temperatures.

Aug 19, 2009 at 07:11 AM

mawz
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Leica S2

RCicala wrote:
Some more information released to dealers yesterday in question-answer format, in case anyone's interested:

What's the resolution of A/D converter inside the camera? 14bit

Hmm, comparably priced MFDB's are 16bit. Another spec-list fail for the Leica, but like the LCD not one that's likely to seriously affect shooting with it.

What I'm seeing more and more from the S2 is a camera that should cost $15k and win on price/performance and size/performance over the equivalent-MP MFDB's but instead costs $25k and looks to underperform slightly against a H3DII-39 or 645AFDIII/P40+.

Aug 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM

kidigital
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Leica S2

Have you used the 645AFDI, II or III bodies? Ack ... it's like being in a time warp from 15 years ago. The S2 won't be perfect, but it looks to be an upgrade compared to most current medium format cameras. It's not advanced as the most recent Canikon DSLRs, but it looks to be a step in the right direction. I'm most interested to see what the image quality will look like. Leica has done a great job with lenses lately (for a very small company) and any improvements in MF lens design will also be an excellent step forward.

Aug 19, 2009 at 12:13 PM

mawz
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Leica S2

kidigital wrote:
Have you used the 645AFDI, II or III bodies? Ack ... it's like being in a time warp from 15 years ago. The S2 won't be perfect, but it looks to be an upgrade compared to most current medium format cameras. It's not advanced as the most recent Canikon DSLRs, but it looks to be a step in the right direction. I'm most interested to see what the image quality will look like. Leica has done a great job with lenses lately (for a very small company) and any improvements in MF lens design will also be an excellent step...Show more →

Actually I have used the AFD bodies and frankly I liked them. Good control layout and decent ergonomics. Of course I also quite like my circa-1983 645 Super. From a technical standpoint the S2 has more primitive AF (single-point only vs 3 point) and a more archaic control layout (Shutter speed dial?)

The S2 looks to be less nice to use due to the distinct lack of physical controls aside from the shutter speed dial, control wheel and shutter. Frankly it's seems to have a control layout that makes a D40 look good.

Aug 19, 2009 at 02:21 PM

kidigital
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Leica S2

Neither one or three point AF do much for me ... can't say I've ever moved the focus point in my year of using the AFDIII ... but, I'm probably too impatient. I'd be more inclined with a few more focus points to choose from. Same goes for the rest of the controls ... if I don't use them, I'd rather have them buried and out of my way.

Aug 19, 2009 at 02:49 PM

telyt
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Leica S2

mawz wrote:
The S2 looks to be less nice to use due to the distinct lack of physical controls aside from the shutter speed dial, control wheel and shutter. Frankly it's seems to have a control layout that makes a D40 look good.

Might be best to use one before deciding that it's less nice to use.

Aug 19, 2009 at 06:00 PM

mawz
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Leica S2

telyt wrote:
Might be best to use one before deciding that it's less nice to use.

With certain UI decisions I don't have to, I already know from experience that I will not enjoy using them. Excessively software-based UI's fall into that category. I'm a big believer in dedicated controls, something the S2 is lacking. It has exactly 1 button, 1 wheel and 1 dial which are easily activated with the right (controlling) hand. That is insufficient when working in the field. Even the lowly D40 adds 3 buttons easily reached by the right hand (AE Lock, exposure compensation, and the mostly useless Info button). AE lock and Exposure compensation are what I consider the minimum required controls for a consumer camera. A pro multi-mode camera should have a seperate AF-on/AF-Lock, metering, drive mode, DoF preview, WB and ISO buttons (assuming dual-wheel setup). without dual-wheel an Exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation button are de rigeur.

I'd be rather less unhappy with the S2 UI if it at least had a couple properly-located dedicated or soft buttons for use when shooting. As it is, you're going to have to look at the LCD to change damned near anything other than shutter speed and whatever's assigned to the control wheel.

The D40's UI is better suited to quick, controlled shooting than the S2's. Id be stuck constantly looking at the LCD with the S2.

Aug 19, 2009 at 07:00 PM

RCicala
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Leica S2

Either the IQ will blow us away or it won't.

If it doesn't, not many people are going to drop that kind of change and it will be a collector's item in 18 months.

If it does, there will certainly be some people willing to overcome the ergonomics shortcomings and pay the price to produce the images.

Aug 19, 2009 at 07:19 PM

telyt
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Leica S2

mawz wrote:
With certain UI decisions I don't have to, I already know from experience that I will not enjoy using them.

You forgot to add ".. besides, those grapes look sour."

Aug 19, 2009 at 08:39 PM

mawz
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Leica S2

telyt wrote:
You forgot to add ".. besides, those grapes look sour."

No sour grapes here, just Leica ignoring 24 years of UI design experience for AF SLR's on the part of the other DSLR makers which has resulted in todays button-encrusted but quick to use UI's in favour of a UI setup most similar to the constrained UI's of low-end consumer SLR's that working shooters quickly abandon due to the lack of controls.

There's good reason why the basic UI of all 5 of the major SLR makers on their higher-end cameras is so similar. 2 control wheels, AE lock and AF-on under the thumb, joystick or 4-way below that but still thumb-reachable. A lot of UI designs have been tried in the last 24 years, especially by Minolta and Pentax, but by 2001 all had settled on the same basic layout with a few minor variations. Even the single-wheel UI's come down to two basic variations (thumbwheel-based, as Nikon introduced with the F801 in 1988, or fingerwheel-based as introduced in the first Rebel in 1991 or so).

Why? Because it was the most efficient UI for shooting and allows access to all the basic controls needed by a AF and AE camera without taking your eye away from the viewfinder.

UI/ergonomic design has never been Leica's strong suit. They got it 100% right once (the M3) and their biggest failures have been when trying to muck with proven UI's (The M5 most notably).

Aug 19, 2009 at 09:13 PM

mawz
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Leica S2

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the current UI's are there yet.

There are UI changes which could be quite a leap. I'd love to see fully-assignable buttons and putting a truly assignable set of buttons on the lenses would be nice (Sony does this in a limited fashion with limited configurability on their G lenses). The lack of left-hand controls are probably the biggest weakness of the current UI's.

Also AF control beyond activation/lock and point control are underdeveloped. Only Sony offers the true ability to switch between true AF and true MF while shooting with any lens. And their UI for this is not entirely smooth.

The impact of per-shot ISO on AE modes is another area that needs developing. Pentax has pretty much worked this out (of course Pentax has long been playing with AE modes, especially with their Green Button and multiple selectable Program Lines) but it would be nice to see Pentax's development of the Sv and TAv modes along with offering selectable ISO on a control wheel in Tv and Av on other makers cameras.

Aug 19, 2009 at 09:33 PM

kidtexas
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Leica S2

I think (?) that the S2 is getting a button under the thumb that is user assignable. If it's not assignable, it's at least available for focussing. Also, I believe the other buttons are assignable as well. It does appear to be missing a dial or two though.

Aug 19, 2009 at 09:47 PM

mawz
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Leica S2

kidtexas wrote:
I think (?) that the S2 is getting a button under the thumb that is user assignable. If it's not assignable, it's at least available for focussing. Also, I believe the other buttons are assignable as well. It does appear to be missing a dial or two though.

I know the 4 soft buttons around the LCD are semi-assignable (their function is based on which menu is currently active). If they added a thumb-button which is assignable (even if only a choice of AF-on or AE-Lock) that would seriously improve the control layout.

But I can only comment on what they're showing off, and there's no thumb-button or other extraneous controls shown on the S series site.

Aug 19, 2009 at 09:50 PM

telyt
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Leica S2

mawz wrote:
No sour grapes here, just Leica ignoring 24 years of UI design experience for AF SLR's on the part of the other DSLR makers which has resulted in todays button-encrusted but quick to use UI's in favour of a UI setup most similar to the constrained UI's of low-end consumer SLR's that working shooters quickly abandon due to the lack of controls..

What you're complaining about is that it's not what you've become accustomed to. The production models also have a thumb button that isn't on the prototypes, that is user-customizable.

Aug 19, 2009 at 10:10 PM

mawz
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Leica S2

telyt wrote:
What you're complaining about is that it's not what you've become accustomed to. The production models also have a thumb button that isn't on the prototypes, that is user-customizable.

What I'm complaining about is that it nearly duplicates a UI which has already proven excessively limiting, except the UI that's nearly duplicated is actually more flexible (That being the D40).

An assignable thumb-button is a definite improvement over what they're showing on their website and turns that control layout from a near-disaster to merely limiting provided it can be set as AF-On or AE-Lock. That would give it roughly the same level of controlability at eye level as a D40 assuming that in Program or Shutter Priority mode the control wheel can be set to exposure compensation. Of course in Aperture Priority the D40 would offer direct control of more items (since it could set aperture, exposure compensation and either AF-On or AE-Lock while the S2 would lose exposure compensation since the wheel would now be setting aperture and the shutter dial is vestigial in that mode)

The control layout on the S2 seems to be designed specifically to inhibit fast use of the camera in favour of menu-diving (or at least mucking around on the LCD). But the rest of the camera seems oriented towards fast use.

Aug 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

telyt
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Leica S2

mawz wrote:
What I'm complaining about is that it nearly duplicates a UI which has already proven excessively limiting, except the UI that's nearly duplicated is actually more flexible (That being the D40).

Given that none of us have actually used a production model of the camera I find it foolish to be complaining about its user interface. Use it, then tell me what you think of its UI. Until then the UI complaints are nothing but hot air.

Aug 19, 2009 at 10:50 PM

mawz
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Leica S2

telyt wrote:
Given that none of us have actually used a production model of the camera I find it foolish to be complaining about its user interface. Use it, then tell me what you think of its UI. Until then the UI complaints are nothing but hot air.

Note I've made no comments about shooting control location. That's pretty much a must-see/must-handle. It's the presence (or in this case complete lack) of basic shooting controls that is the issue that I'm commenting on and for that all I need to see is images of the body to note that basic controls are simply missing. There are things you simply CAN'T do without looking at the LCD on the S2. Things like setting exposure compensation then activating the AF with your thumb in Aperture Priority mode. These are basic things that even consumer DSLR's have controls for.

If the control ain't there, I'm not going to wait for a production model before commenting on the omission.

Edited on Aug 20, 2009 at 10:06 PM · View previous versions

Aug 20, 2009 at 10:20 AM

thrice
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Leica S2

I guess you're gonna have to hold off on buying one then mate.

Aug 20, 2009 at 10:55 AM

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