p.3 #1 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
unforged wrote:
What about offering her a credit toward future services? I feel your pain and totally understand where you are coming from. But without that contract.... ouch.
So maybe say, "I recognize that you'd like your deposit back, but it's very clear on the contract that it's non-refundable. Please recognize that I held your date and turned away business. As a gesture of goodwill, I will give you a $300 credit towards future services on any type of session."
Maybe that's an option?
That is a good idea, but I already ran that by her. I offered her a family photo shoot in a place where they like to vacation, but she turned it down.
p.3 #2 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Don't return anything but do offer photog time credit perhaps. Sticky Situation. You have to pay the bills AND you turned people away. Do you have proof of turning away biz?
p.3 #3 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
ContagiousIdea wrote:
Don't return anything but do offer photog time credit perhaps. Sticky Situation. You have to pay the bills AND you turned people away. Do you have proof of turning away biz?
I wish I did have proof, but it happened with folks called asking for that date, when I was going through expo databases and skipping over that date, or when people asked me for that date at an expo. Most all of that took place verbally.
Actually, no, wait, I have an email recently where that date was requested! I just called and told them (on voicemail) the the other bride had cancelled and that the date was now open. We'll see, hopefully she hasn't already booked with somebody else.
p.3 #4 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Brian Mullins wrote:
The ones who lost (This is coming from threads in the DWF forum) were because the court saw nothing of value was given in return for the retainer.
The contract itself determines what is of value, not the courts. "For value received, namely ..........." The courts' job is here to ensure enforcement of valid contracts.
Now I'm really, really interested in seeing these cases Brian .. if 90% of wedding contracts are being held by courts as not enforceable then why do we even bother with them?
p.3 #5 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
If contracts don't even hold up, then what does? Why don't we go ruin the wedding photographer's market by telling brides that they can go around to 10 photographers, secure them, and then wait until a week before her big day to decide who she really wants to shoot her wedding! Since the other 9 photographers didn't really "do anything" for her, they'd best give her back her money. Hey, you know, that's actually a good insurance policy that your photographer doesn't get killed between now and 2 weeks before your wedding!
Or better yet, why don't we all stop accepting deposits? Hey, what's the point if it's refundable anyways? Why not just go with their word on the reservation? That's basically what refundable deposits boil down to.
I don't see how a court would argue that reserving a prime Saturday all year for one bride, and turning away other business is not VALUABLE SERVICE!
What's next? Marriage is not a "valuable agreement" as long as you give your spouse the love they want... but on the side you're out visiting every girl on the street? Who says marriage has to be "legally exclusive"?
When a person makes an agreement, it ought to stand unless there is good reason to believe that it is unreasonable. It is not unreasonable to require payment in order to turn away other business and secure a date in your calendar.
p.3 #6 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
I'm flabbergasted that $150 or $300 is worth this much hassle and potentially bad word-of-mouth. I mean, I'm not using c-notes for toilet tissue or anything, but that's the sale of a single decent-sized print or canvas. A simple cost-benefit suggests that going to war over such a small sum is counter-productive.
1. Refund her the money.
2. Raise your deposit or retainer to a sum that's actually worthwhile
3. Go get a good contract that's been reviewed by legal counsel.
4. Never again accept a deposit without a contract. Forgetting even the legal issues, having your deposit/retainer policy in writing ensures that that there is limited opportunity for misunderstanding. Maybe she didn't really understand when you verbally explained it, but if its in writing (and you make sure she reads it!) then you'll UNQUESTIONABLY have the MORAL and legal high ground.
p.3 #7 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
tcrobert wrote:
If contracts don't even hold up, then what does? Why don't we go ruin the wedding photographer's market by telling brides that they can go around to 10 photographers, secure them, and then wait until a week before her big day to decide who she really wants to shoot her wedding! Since the other 9 photographers didn't really "do anything" for her, they'd best give her back her money. Hey, you know, that's actually a good insurance policy that your photographer doesn't get killed between now and 2 weeks before your wedding!
Or better yet, why don't we all stop accepting deposits? Hey, what's the point if it's refundable anyways? Why not just go with their word on the reservation? That's basically what refundable deposits boil down to.
I don't see how a court would argue that reserving a prime Saturday all year for one bride, and turning away other business is not VALUABLE SERVICE!
What's next? Marriage is not a "valuable agreement" as long as you give your spouse the love they want... but on the side you're out visiting every girl on the street? Who says marriage has to be "legally exclusive"?
When a person makes an agreement, it ought to stand unless there is good reason to believe that it is unreasonable. It is not unreasonable to require payment in order to turn away other business and secure a date in your calendar.
Dude... if you didn't want opinions, then you shouldn't of asked. You asked for advice, it's been given and then you post the above tirade talking about everything from marriage to adultery to the destruction of the entire wedding photography market... i'm all for making a point, but don't you think that's a little dramatic? It's obvious your mind is made up so why is this even an issue anymore?
Bottom line, you have no contract with her so NEITHER of you are protected. If she takes you to court, then they can decide and you can advise us of the outcome.
p.3 #8 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Brian, my last post wasn't directed towards anybody here... I was just making a point about how the legal system is heading down the toilet if us photographers cannot have non-refundable deposits to reserve our valuable Saturdays. Sorry if I offended anybody...
p.3 #9 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
ericjohn wrote:
In my state, you need to call it a 'retainer' anything else has an expectation of 'refundable' - check with an attorney.
Just my $0.02...
In the UK it's the same we call it a retainer, booking fee and is non refundable, without a signed contract you are exposed so need to refund the deposit.
p.3 #13 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Same here in Missouri. If you call it a deposit, you can be sued to refund it. If you call it a retainer fee it is not refundable. The father of a bride who is an attorney pointed that out to me. I thought that was pretty cool, since I changed the contract before his daughter signed it to read 'retainer' and that took away their ability to get a refund.
p.3 #14 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Marcus Watts wrote:
The words non refundable deposit should be on your price list too so that clients know before they even get to the contract.
Live and learn. Give her the money back and chalk this one up to experience.
Wrong... In a court of law, a deposit is considered just that... a deposit, and is considered refundable in the event of a change of plans. What it should be called is a non-refundable retainer.
p.3 #15 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
sealsphoto wrote:
Same here in Missouri. If you call it a deposit, you can be sued to refund it. If you call it a retainer fee it is not refundable. The father of a bride who is an attorney pointed that out to me. I thought that was pretty cool, since I changed the contract before his daughter signed it to read 'retainer' and that took away their ability to get a refund.
You are awesome. Thank you for sharing!
I just modified my contract, so any future contracts have a retainer fee instead of a deposit.
p.3 #17 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Medic1210 wrote:
Wrong... In a court of law, a deposit is considered just that... a deposit, and is considered refundable in the event of a change of plans. What it should be called is a non-refundable retainer.
Well worth noting. the point remains to put it on all relevant paperwork rather than just spring it when the contract is signed.
p.3 #20 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Look at it the other way -- what if after receiving a deposit you failed to show up for the wedding? Do you think she would have had a right to sue you in the absence of that contract? I'm sure you would try to hide behind that error, just as the bride is trying to do the same with her deposit.
Give her the money back. It's not worth the bad publicity you'll get from her bad-mouthing your business.
