p.1 #1 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
I shoot weddings professionally, and once in a while somebody cancels. Typically I keep the deposit or give back a portion of it (depending on the situation).
One bride just cancelled on me, but didn't think the deposit was non-refundable. She wants her money back, and said if she knew I don't refund deposits, she wouldn't have went with me in the first place.
Is it just me, or aren't deposits like this generally considered non-refundable anyways? She booked a few months ago, and I know I have turned away business because of her having the date secured.
The whole idea of a deposit is to secure a date, and if they back out, at least I have something to help put food on my table. If deposits were refundable, they would be pointless in this type of business!!
I sent her a contract which she never returned (I should have followed up better - it slipped through my fingers I know). On the contract, it states the non-refundable policy, and I have proof that she received the contract.
I am pondering giving her half back (which would be $150) to make a happy medium. I know it's fair at all, because she likely caused me to turn away a grand worth of business, and now she wants her deposit back. Had I of thought she would do such a thing, I would have forced a signed contract right away in order to hold the date. At least if I give her half back, she'll be less likely to take me to small claims court and make a mess out of it.
p.1 #5 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
You owe her EVERY penny she gave you. Not 50%. Not 75%. Not 99.9%. One Hundred Percent.
Like Brian replied and the others agreed, you NEVER had a client. I would suggest you never take the deposit/retainer/holding fee/etc without the contract and never take the contract without the deposit/retainer/holding fee/etc. I for one do not because they go hand in hand to secure a date and my clients know this because I inform them verbally and it is noted in the contract itself.
p.1 #9 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
No offense, but let me start this off by saying that you're a putz for having accepted money and holding a date without a signed contract
That being said, I'm going to have to disagree with the vocal majority in the thread so far.
Provided that:
1. There was an agreement between the two of you for you to shoot the wedding
2. She gave you money to hold her date
3. You gave her a contract, you say you can prove she got it.
4. Your contract clearly states the deposit is non-refundable
and furthermore, it would be a BIG benefit if there were written communication between you (email for instance) indicating the securing of the wedding date
I have ZERO doubt in my mind that you would be awarded more than the $0.00 some others suggest here.
Did I mention that you were a putz not to get a signed contract ON THE SPOT WHEN YOU COLLECTED MONEY?
That's a fact, and do let this serve as a lesson...
but the reality is that if the two of you ended up before an arbitrator of some sort, nobody in their right mind would presume that she is owed 100% of the money. I would put a crisp $20 that the finding would be fully in your favor, in fact (unless the arbitrator wanted to punish you for being a putz and accepting money/holding a date without a contract). It is industry standard to require non-refundable deposits for the specific purpose you mentioned: you secure a date and turn away business. All the other vendors involved in a wedding will operate in a similar manner, so this Bride is trying to pull a fast one here by saying "if I knew it was non-refundable I wouldn't have booked you" ... well maybe Uncle Bob doesn't expect a deposit, but I can't think of any professional who would reserve a full day for you in exchange for a smile and a handshake.
In your shoes I'd do the following:
I'd call her and explain to her the situation in clear terms: you held a date for her, you lost business, that's what the deposit is for, etc. etc. etc.
Then I'd offer her this compromise:
"As a gesture of goodwill I'm willing to give you half your deposit back in cash, and three gift certificates worth $50 of photography time ... something you can give to family and friends as a gift, or you can use it yourself in the future"
*NOTE: I did have one person, once take offense to being called a "putz" ... my understanding of the word, or the way it's used around those parts anyway is basically 2/3 of a stop higher than "silly" ... so really, no intent to offend, k?
p.1 #10 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
yeah youre pretty screwed if you have no contract. The first few lines of my contract is the deposit/retainer verbiage along with the refund policy. Its not all fine print legal mumbo-jumbo. its plain and simple. They get half back if I can book something else on the newly canceled date, if not its non-refundable.
Honestly, I cant see how you can consider yourself a professional if you dont use contracts for EVERYTHING!
p.1 #12 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
lisy78 wrote:
No offense, but let me start this off by saying that you're a putz for having accepted money and holding a date without a signed contract
That being said, I'm going to have to disagree with the vocal majority in the thread so far.
Provided that:
1. There was an agreement between the two of you for you to shoot the wedding
2. She gave you money to hold her date
3. You gave her a contract, you say you can prove she got it.
4. Your contract clearly states the deposit is non-refundable
and furthermore, it would be a BIG benefit if there were written communication between you (email for instance) indicating the securing of the wedding date
I have ZERO doubt in my mind that you would be awarded more than the $0.00 some others suggest here.
Did I mention that you were a putz not to get a signed contract ON THE SPOT WHEN YOU COLLECTED MONEY?
That's a fact, and do let this serve as a lesson...
but the reality is that if the two of you ended up before an arbitrator of some sort, nobody in their right mind would presume that she is owed 100% of the money. I would put a crisp $20 that the finding would be fully in your favor, in fact (unless the arbitrator wanted to punish you for being a putz and accepting money/holding a date without a contract). It is industry standard to require non-refundable deposits for the specific purpose you mentioned: you secure a date and turn away business. All the other vendors involved in a wedding will operate in a similar manner, so this Bride is trying to pull a fast one here by saying "if I knew it was non-refundable I wouldn't have booked you" ... well maybe Uncle Bob doesn't expect a deposit, but I can't think of any professional who would reserve a full day for you in exchange for a smile and a handshake.
In your shoes I'd do the following:
I'd call her and explain to her the situation in clear terms: you held a date for her, you lost business, that's what the deposit is for, etc. etc. etc.
Then I'd offer her this compromise:
"As a gesture of goodwill I'm willing to give you half your deposit back in cash, and three gift certificates worth $50 of photography time ... something you can give to family and friends as a gift, or you can use it yourself in the future"
This makes the most sense to me. After all, what other photographer would let her hold the date without a guaranteed deposit? Nobody with even a 10th of my experience would do such a thing I'm sure... unless they knew her personally and it was a friend-based agreement. I think, at least this is my opinion, that non-refundable deposits are industry standard for not only wedding photographers, but also most other vendors as well. It's ludicrous to expect a full refund of a deposit from any wedding photographer.
I think what I'm going to do is offer her half back like you said. She's got to be pretty desperate to try and drag me into small claims court for the $150 remaining. And if she did, like you said, I'm sure she won't get a full settlement. Even if she got an extra $100 (leaving me with $50), is that worth her time to take an entire day to drive here to see me in court and all that hassle? Unless her time is only worth $5/hr, and she's going to pour $50 into her gas tank just to get here and back.
I have such a crazy schedule, and I've shot a lot of weddings yet never ran into this problem... but I will in the future make it a high priority to get a signed contract within 2 weeks of every deposit. Sometimes they do the deposit online so it's instant, but it can take 2 weeks to get a contract across the country, signed, and returned. I think that's reasonable.
I've learned a lesson for sure. I'm surprised I got along so long without running into this.
p.1 #14 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
I have on many occasions taken a retainer via EFT prior to receiving the contract, but only in the case of out-of-town clients.
What I do is accept the retainer and email them the contract and receipt with the understanding that they will sign and return the contract as soon as they can. This way they know I will hold their date. This whole process can take up to two weeks.
So far it has caused no problems, but I can see a possible situation where the client changes their mind between the time they send the retainer and actually mail me the contract. So I am clear in my email communications with them, and also the conditions under which the retainer was accepted.
But emails are not contracts, and if this ended up in a way where they wanted to cancel I'd just accept their request and enjoy the day off.
I really don't see any viable alternative to booking out-of-town clients .. do you just accept them at their word, take no retainer at all, send them a contract and then wait for them to return it?, all the while turning away others interested in the date? I don't think so.
p.1 #15 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
tcrobert, I don't think you are too far off with your thinking concerning deposits and I agree with you (not to sure if the law does though or not? ).
Unfortunately, it is no help if she has a contract that isn't signed and returned...
I would refund all or nothing and not 1/2 back since that sends the wrong message imo. It appears as if you were a tad sloppy with this booking procedures and are now getting burned because of it. I believe in theory you are entitled to the money but this is one of those arguments that is never going to be won, in the end one of you is going to feel that they had to pay financially and the only answer is a contract to put it to rest.
I would be concerned about bad word of mouth if I didn't refund it and who knows you may pay more than $300 in lost jobs... but you never know.
p.1 #16 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
tcrobert wrote:
I think, at least this is my opinion, that non-refundable deposits are industry standard for not only wedding photographers, but also most other vendors as well. It's ludicrous to expect a full refund of a deposit from any wedding photographer.
You're missing one critical point...
She didn't have a wedding photographer. She gave a guy money who photographs weddings with no stipulations or agreements.
If I gave you $500 and wanted it back, and you only gave me half, don't ya think I have a right to the rest of the money? You did not perform a service and just because you lost money from other gigs does not mean you are entitled to anything in return.
Man, it's $150.... and, no offense, but with you talking about how much experience you have and how many weddings you shoot, this is a pretty rookie mistake and, frarnkly, i'm surprised at your level of entitlement.
p.1 #17 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Brian Mullins wrote:
If I gave you $500 and wanted it back, and you only gave me half, don't ya think I have a right to the rest of the money?
If you gave me $500 without a contract then want it back maybe I decide to give you nothing. And you take me to court. And you lose.
AFAIK courts use the broad principle of caveat emptor .. buyer beware. You give someone $500 and ask for it back then the onus is on YOU to prove why you have a legal right to demand a refund. Contracts or lack thereof are two way streets.
p.1 #18 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
This is sounding like a high risk of bad press... here's how I see it:
1. You took money based on a tentative or verbal agreement. Was the refund policy with regards to your retainer spoken of during the conversations you've had? Are you 100% certain that you told her that her retainer was non-refundable?
2. Her failure to sign and return the contract 'could' be interpreted as non-acceptance.
3. If you don't give her back her money, or at least a part of it that she's willing to accept, it will very likely end up with a great deal of bad press as she tells everyone she knows about the horrible experience that she's had. True or not, you just can't win back the people she speaks to.
In short, right or wrong, I'd give her the money back, bite the costs as a lesson and NEVER let this happen again. It's, IMHO, the safest way to ensure that you come out of this with minimal short or long term problems and more importantly, the best possible reputation you can in this kind of situation.
p.1 #19 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Caveat Emptor yes, but common sense is also employed.
I've seen about 10 cases of photographers WITH signed contracts go to court for a cancellation and non-refundable retainer. 9 of them lost... keep in mind, these were contracts that clearly stated the retainer/deposit is non-refundable. I can't believe that not having a contract would STRENGTHEN a photographers legal right to keep money.
I'm all for buyer beware but, in this case, I honestly believe not only is the OP in the wrong by wanting to keep any money (without a contract), but he won;t even have a chance to open his briefcase (if it goes to court) before the judge finds for the client.
Let me say though, none of us are lawyers and I would highly recommend you call yours and not base any decision on the opinions of photographers on a forum.
p.1 #20 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Brian Mullins wrote:
Caveat Emptor yes, but common sense is also employed.
I've seen about 10 cases of photographers WITH signed contracts go to court for a cancellation and non-refundable retainer. 9 of them lost... keep in mind, these were contracts that clearly stated the retainer/deposit is non-refundable.
I'll believe that when I see it .. generally courts uphold contracts, otherwise commerce goes to hell in a handbasket.
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