I would be very interested to see the blackframe test at isos 50, 100 and 200 on an original 5D. I wonder whether, resolution aside, the old 5D is a better low iso camera than the new.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Yes, since it's pulled ISO 100, you'll lose about a stop DR but you should get better shadow detail, at least that was the case with pulling on film.
I've always been amazed about the negative comments about ISO 50 especially regards noise.
I thought the beefs against ISO 50 were not related to noise but to the loss of DR (especially highlight detail). I can see how ISO 50 could be useful if you really needed the slower shutter speed and fine highlight detail wasn't important.
thedigitalbean wrote:
I thought the beefs against ISO 50 were not related to noise but to the loss of DR (especially highlight detail). I can see how ISO 50 could be useful if you really needed the slower shutter speed and fine highlight detail wasn't important.
Looking at the stop of floor noise that you gain at 50 on a 5D2, it makes me wonder whether 100 iso really does have more DR than 50.
brainiac wrote:
I would be very interested to see the blackframe test at isos 50, 100 and 200 on an original 5D. I wonder whether, resolution aside, the old 5D is a better low iso camera than the new.
Only thing I have online is this shot from my old 5D, 100% crop, +3 in PS
brainiac wrote:
I'm getting criss-cross patterns within the noise on my 5D2 at low isos, e.g. 100. My 1Ds3 did not do this. At 100 iso on that camera I could push the shadows by 1 or 2 stops comfortably.
I'm curious if it's noticeable at normal size? or if you have to do a 100% crop to really see it?
jamey_cc wrote:
I'm curious if it's noticeable at normal size? or if you have to do a 100% crop to really see it?
I would estimate that it would be visible in a 10x8 print, or perhaps smaller. In places shadows just have a canvassy look, which is intrusive and spoils the sense of reality.
brainiac, since the question about price/performance is risen, I decided to post the file from my 40D at 200 ISO along with yours at 200 ISO.
Processed according to the agreement.
When introduced, the 40D was half the prize of the 5D2.
p.13 #10 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
alundeb wrote:
brainiac, since the question about price/performance is risen, I decided to post the file from my 40D at 200 ISO along with yours at 200 ISO.
Processed according to the agreement.
When introduced, the 40D was half the prize of the 5D2.
Thanks for that - it gives a little insight into why I'm whingeing so. 5D2 shadow noise is really disappointing even compared to some APS-C cameras. Full frame shouldn't be like that. A replacement 1Ds3 is on my shopping list, as is a Nikon D700.
p.13 #11 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
brainiac wrote:
Thanks for that - it gives a little insight into why I'm whingeing so. 5D2 shadow noise is really disappointing even compared to some APS-C cameras. Full frame shouldn't be like that. A replacement 1Ds3 is on my shopping list, as is a Nikon D700.
I fail to see how a 1ds3 is worth another $5k because of an almost non-existant difference in noise at low iso's.
p.13 #12 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
Will Patterson wrote:
I fail to see how a 1ds3 is worth another $5k because of an almost non-existant difference in noise at low iso's.
You get a lot more for your money than just better low isos. There's proper weather sealing, much better AF, 5fps, n levels of configurability, and the list goes on. I sold my 1Ds3 for a little under 3500 GBP. My 2nd 5D2 is going to cost me 2000 GBP. Why not run one of each?
p.13 #13 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
I'm looking at alundeb's comparison images for the 40D and 5D2. While I realise what I am about to say has nothing to do with brainiac's worries about noise performance at 100 ISO, I would like to say at at high ISOs in real lowlight the 5d2 absolutely demolishes the 40D's performance. My 40D at night produces image ruining banding in impressive quantities, the 5d2 giving amazing ISO 6400 performance.
Just felt I would like to say that, irrelevant as it is. Carry on.
p.13 #14 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
Not irrelevant, David. In fact, the main reason why I will be keeping at least one 5D2. ISO 6400 performance is exceptionally good, and definitely easier to use, and possibly cleaner than my 1Ds3 was at 6400.
p.13 #15 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
Hello brainiac,
You've been very helpful in the past with images comparing the high ISO performance of the D700 and 1Ds3, thank you. In the end I coughed up for the 5D2 which I feel has at last given me the low light camera I've been waiting all decade for, of course the 1Ds3 could have fulfilled my needs much earlier, but alas its outside my price bracket!
I hope that the 50 ISO setting on the 5D2 fulfills your DR needs, if not yes I think you will be getting another 1Ds3. Personally I've sold kit in the past, regretted it later and rebought. We've all done it! Thats part of photography.
p.13 #17 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
thw2 wrote:
Brainiac, I will get the Nikon D3X and D700 combo if I were you.
It's tempting but the main problems with that are...
a) I have a lot of EOS compatible glass and I think the EOS mount is a better mount than F, which raises the question of what the next round of bodies will bring
b) there are serious deficiencies in the Nikon lens line-up which are tricky to solve, and which may or may not be fixed soon, e.g. 35mm f1.4, or a standard zoom with IS etc..
c) the 5D2 is definitely good enough for shooting events, and I can hit the set button to switch from 21 megapixel stills to 1080p video without taking my eye from the finder
d) 5D2 price - it may not be better at 100 iso, but it gives me most of the IQ of the D3x for a fraction of the cost
e) D700 lacks pixels and video compared to 5D2 - it would be hard to move from 1Ds3 to D700 and not feel itchy - Nikon lent me one for a week, but I couldn't see any strong reason to switch
Nikon lost me with the 'DX is the future' nonsense, whereas Canon spent the money on full frame sensors to win me as a customer. The current Nikon line-up isn't better in a compelling way. I'm probably going to wait for the next round of pro bodies before making a decision on this. For instance, it's nice to have 1080p video in a 21 megapixel stills body: I don't have to switch tools. Nikon may have forged ahead in some ways, but Canon still has some pretty tangible advantages over Nikon too. Overall I'm happy enough with the 5D. Low iso pictures are a small minority in my work, so the subject of this thread is not a deal breaker. I just may not get 2 5D2's.
p.13 #18 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
Brainiac,
Isn't your issue with the 5D2 not one of principal (being lied to by Canon)?
It seems to me that, based on your previous posts/website, you are into event photography mostly... Isn't the most important thing to have clean high ISO performance?
May I ask... why do you need clean low ISO performance anyway?
p.13 #19 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
Daan B wrote:
Isn't your issue with the 5D2 not one of principal (being lied to by Canon)?
It seems to that, based on your previous posts/website, you are into event photography mostly... Isn't the most important thing to have clean high ISO performance?
May I ask... why do you need clean low ISO performance?
Quite right - high iso is more important to me, and image quality at high iso is generally much lower than low iso, so that is where customers notice problems in quality.
BUT, often enough I have to photograph a bride in a white dress in sunlight and her face in shadow. A significant number of my pictures suffer from blown out highlights because the DR of the image is way beyond what any of these cameras can cope with. So low iso DR covers a significant minority of important pictures. Here's an example: http://www.cyberphotographer.com/s/20050122pitnzit/42.jpg
Pictures like that can certainly benefit from greater ability to hold higlights. Black and white film was amazingly tolerant of overexposure, and if you wanted to 'burn in' blown highlights, you usually could.
Here's another example of the kind of image where ability to rescue deep shadows can be very helpful in stopping highlights from blowing out. My 1Ds3 did a superb job here, and allowed me to retain the bright sky texture while seeing deep into the shadows and distinguishing clean blacks. The 5D2 will not do this nearly as well: http://www.cyberphotographer.com/m/20080726tommatthewstessawatson/bw/0014.jpg
p.13 #20 · Are you seeing 5D2 Criss-Cross Pattern?
brainiac wrote:
So low iso DR covers a significant minority of important pictures.
Is that worth paying a huge amount of extra cash for a 1Ds3? I will let you be the judge of that... I imagine you kick yourself in the head for selling your 1Ds3 too soon...
I am sure there are other less expensive and still suitable solutions... Are high MP's a necessity or a mere luxury in these cases?
