Like everything in life, it all comes down to Lego.
Sure you can build it like the picture on the box, but isn't it more rewarding to build something different or *gasp* even mix it up with all your other Lego and build something as tall as your little sister?
Thanks Conscience. I can see past the tone of your OP and agree.
The problem isn't the copying. We all enjoy getting feedback and constructive criticism. And we've all benefitted from seeing others' work, having direct correspondence, and emulating.
The problem is the practice of copying, not adding your own flavor, and then selling it for an industry-killing $500. Basically taking what generous people have given them -- personally rewarding, potentially profitable knowledge -- and gradually stabbing them in the back with it. The ones who don't pay it forward, but just take away energy, like parasites.
It's fine to trace as a learning exercise, but artists -- even budding ones -- have the pride and conscience to put their own spin on it when it comes to the paid commission work. (Otherwise its plagiarism.) One who does that earns the right to be proud of their ability to make a living with their images. They'll respect themselves, the industry, and their mentors, by not undermining that ability.
We come here for community. The true value of community is networking. Networking is developing mutually beneficial relationships. Whether its technical skills, artistic technique, or feel-good ego satisfaction (and there's nothing wrong with this), the currency here in this community is inspiration.
Mutually beneficial relationships are symbiotic, not parasitic. There's the clownfish and anenome.
...And then there's leeches.
Personally, that's probably the biggest reason why I rarely post images here now. Several FMer's have told me the same thing. FM is a good nework, in some ways as good as the play-to-play networks like DWF, its just that the heavier amount of obvious leeching that goes on can be bit of a downer.
If it's a building block to different and new, then I'm all for it. It's when it's a blatant copy without any invention added, then it's just gotta stop (or be kept to yourself and used as a tool to improve, rather than an attempt at marketing yourself).
+1
everyone should just have to be up front about where they got their ideas.... yes.... even the maestros from Fred Miranda....lol.
... maybe photographers should have to footnote their images.....lol
One of the things I am realizing about wedding photography is that most of it is stylized and there are few new styles coming out. While some pictures may have lots of "pop" added by photoshop actions or other digital additions meant to raise a mediocre photo to great heights, master photographers have a little extra something. And it's not necessarily style. Style changes, especially for new photographers. I'd love to say I've mastered my style or I know my style, but I don't.
As someone starting out, I am dreading and looking forward to trying out various styles - lighting, no lighting, strobist, etc. as I get better. I'd love to say I never copy concepts or ideas, but I have. I can count on one hand the number of concepts I have copied, but I can see how even that can be annoying to those of you who have been developing your own style for a long time.
But what separates one of the greats from one of the wannabes? I believe it comes down to how you interact with the people you are photographing. That's the main thing. I can copy from other photographers all I want, and if I can't get that emotion from my clients, my pictures will fail. Some of the greatest photographers weren't necessarily the most creative or most groundbreaking or even most unique. But they had an ability to capture people in a unique way.
One thing I have learned from trying things I've seen is that it isn't strictly composition or background that makes a shot - it's composition, background, existing light, supplimental light, emotions, weather, etc., etc., etc. There are so many things that go into creating a wonderful photograph, but you have to have that interaction.
Although I'm sometimes annoyed about direct copies, I am a believer of Schumpeters economic concept of "innovation and imitation". Imitation forces the ingenous minds to innovations - and this way it is the source of innovation. The results are the new style concepts in wedding photography we see here every day.
We learn by imitation and repeating/practicing what we've seen done. Mel clearly said that she copied, imitated and used everyone else's ideas until she reached a point that she had learned all those techniques and approaches. After she internalized all that and assimilated it, she is ready to take off the training wheels and go where she wants to with it.
yz-fotografie wrote:
Although I'm sometimes annoyed about direct copies, I am a believer of Schumpeters economic concept of "innovation and imitation". Imitation forces the ingenous minds to innovations - and this way it is the source of innovation. The results are the new style concepts in wedding photography we see here every day.
A great author once said that the secret to being a great author is this, "plagerize". I thought it was Hemingway and I was looking for the quote. Didn't find it, but I like these and they are on topic.
"The individual, the great artist when he comes, uses everything that has been discovered or known about his art up to that point, being able to accept or reject in a time so short it seems that the knowledge was born with him, rather than that he takes instantly what it takes the ordinary man a lifetime to know, and then the great artist goes beyond what has been done or known and makes something of his own." - Ernest Hemingway
"How simple the writing of literature would be if it were only necessary to write in another way what has been well written. It is because we have had such great writers in the past that a writer is driven far out past where he can go, out to where no one can help him." - Ernest Hemingway
"I might say that what amateurs call a style is usually only the unavoidable awkwardnesses in first trying to make something that has not heretofore been made." - Ernest Hemingway
"We are all apprentices in a craft where no one ever becomes a master." - Ernest Hemingway
"If you have a success, you have it for the wrong reasons. If you become popular it is always because of the worst aspects of your work." - Ernest Hemingway
"That terrible mood of depression of whether it’s any good or not is what is known as The Artist’s Reward." - Ernest Hemingway
"All modern American literature comes from one book by Mark Twain called Huckleberry Finn.... American writing comes from that. There was nothing before. There has been nothing as good since." - Ernest Hemingway
"Writing, at its best, is a lonely life. Organizations for writers palliate the writer’s loneliness, but I doubt if they improve his writing. He grows in public stature as he sheds his loneliness and often his work deteriorates. For he does his work alone and if he is a good enough writer he must face eternity, or the lack of it, each day." - Ernest Hemingway
yz-fotografie wrote:
Although I'm sometimes annoyed about direct copies, I am a believer of Schumpeters economic concept of "innovation and imitation". Imitation forces the ingenous minds to innovations - and this way it is the source of innovation. The results are the new style concepts in wedding photography we see here every day.
My 2 cents from germany
Michael
thanks, michael. a great way to think about it.
we can apply that idea for our own self-evaluation and growth.
stop copying ourself, even.
push ourself to innovate.
we shouldn't be satisfied with the status quo in our own performance.
Good dialogue here. Atleast it got some folks thinking.
One more thought. Read through the responses. Look at the work of people that say its natural and ok to copy. Then look at the work of the few that said its not cool and they try very, very hard to not do it.
Now do you get it?
Probably not but I tried .
Try thinking for yourself and experimenting. It is really liberating to be responsible for yourself (the success or failure).
Last thought. Many talked about it being natural to copy. I agree it is. People are lazy. I would just like to see photographers who are supposed to be creatives encourage others to be actually be creative. This forum will be much better if we point out to others that blatent copying isn't cool even if the photo is pretty.
conscience224 wrote:
Good dialogue here. Atleast it got some folks thinking.
One more thought. Read through the responses. Look at the work of people that say its natural and ok to copy. Then look at the work of the few that said its not cool and they try very, very hard to not do it.
Now do you get it?
Probably not but I tried .
Try thinking for yourself and experimenting. It is really liberating to be responsible for yourself (the success or failure).
I wouldn't pat yourself on the back too vigorously. is it "liberating" to create a phony user name in order to give feedback that you're not courageous enough to share under your own name?
so "conscience" you were never a member of this forum prior to 1/6/09 and in the course of 2 days you determined that this place is full of unoriginal copycats? i'm sure you can't expect us to buy that.
at any rate, the themes of originality and blatant imitation and innovation (both in our art and our business practices) are topics that are discussed here at length on a regular basis - and with far less posturing.
the only reason people are getting upset is it hits close to home. Many on this forum think its normal to copy and do so on a regular basis. This thread would have been ignored if it hadn't struck a tune. Also I never said everyone on here is a hack. Many are very talented and helpful photographers. Its the ones that even maurice talked about that I have a problem with.
..............and by the way, I'm not one of the people in here that are upset about this. Hassy is the only thing in this forum that upset me, but he's gone.
tcamper wrote:
..............and by the way, I'm not one of the people in here that are upset about this. Hassy is the only thing in this forum that upset me, but he's gone.
... maybe photographers should have to footnote their images.....lol