Until I bought PS CS3, I used a combination of PSE and Gimp. If money is tight, this is solid combo (though not the fastest, as you may need to jump between programs).
As noted above, PSE (and lightroom) have the same raw converter (Adobe Camera Raw) as PS. If you shoot raw (which you should at least experiment with, even if you eventually decide to shoot just jpeg), a good raw converter is as important (no, more important) than any other post-processing packages.
I have played around with DPP, and it seems like an okay tool, but I need a faster workflow.
The fact is that between DPP, the Gimp, and PSE, you can do 99% of what I (and most photographers) do in PS; it just takes longer because you need to switch programs. The only thing I very regularly use that you cannot do in any of the above programs is soft-proof a print.
Begin with DPP and the Gimp, and perhaps add more tools (PSE/Lightroom/PS) as needed/wanted.
I can't help but wonder...
How many of the people that posted above (insisting that Adobe products are necessary) are professional photographers? How many of you take portraits? Personally, my interests are currently mostly in wildlife and city/landscape shooting. With only a couple small exceptions (like straightening horizons, which DPP can't do), I barely use Photoshop. For recreational or hobby use, is PS3, PS4, or Lightroom really needed?
I think Matt has hit the nail on the head. We really need to know the OP's background (and budget) before we can accurately recommend anything. If he's new to DSLR, then he surely won't be looking for a full blown copy of Photoshop. Nor is he likely to get $300.00 worth of value out of Lightroom. I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that he's relatively new to the game since it appears as though he doesn't have photo editing software currently.
Dude, you can go for free and maybe never expand beyond the capabilities of software in that price range. Gimp, Serif Photoplus 6.0 are both free. Both offer a pretty reasonable level of editing - especially for the novice or light user. Start with them and get your feet wet on just what is possible with digital editing. If you find they don't quite give you the juice you're looking for then come back and post a specific method you need and the good folks here (like those that have already posted on this thread) will certainly help you get there. Noise reduction? Noiseware Community Version is free and, while it may not match the big boys, it's an amazing piece of free software and may be all the OP ever needs for his level of post processing.
The OP may be looking for a vehicle to get him to the corner store down the street and he's being told (in some cases) that he should use a Porsche to get there. He's not ready to hit the apex of the corner as he downshifts to get the turbo to spin up so he can power-slide on exit. He wants to put it in drive and push gently on the gas pedal so he can ease out of the driveway and head down the street without running over the neighbor's cat.
I'm an Elements user, but I don't know that I'd have Dave start there even. It's cheap by comparison, but it's still $100.00 that he could spend elsewhere. Go for free, Dave, and when you've maxxed them out then come back here and ask where to spend your hard-earned money on software.
By the way, this is by no means a shot at those who are recommending higher priced (and more powerful) software. I'm sure Dave appreciates all the responses he's gotten back from everyone who is trying to be helpful to him and certainly let's present all the angles. Maybe he's ready for that level of post - if so then that is surely the way to fly. It's my assessment that he's just dipping his toes in the post processing water so he'd be better served by something targeting to that type of user. I could be missing the target by a mile, however ... (wouldn't be the first time).
I have to say I dipped my toes in with PS7 - and never looked back. Whilst not an expert I am fairly adequate - and I think in some regards the more powerful program helps - the use of actions comes to mind and (I think) the easier use of layers.
If he feels that he will eventually move to CS? then starting with Elements is probably the way to go - even if he changes his mind and finds it adequate.
I stand by my recommendations, which included long descriptions of what the software packages actually do (above), so the OP can choose what he needs.
Free: DPP, to start for a taste - excellent RAW converter, with a conceptually challenging interface (curves, not sliders), rudimentary formatting and output.
$300: Lightroom2, my recommendation for a newbie - much friendlier RAW converter, more editing and extensive formatting, and very extensive librarying and sorting of zillions of files.
$6-700: PS CS4 (or CS3), when ready for extensive image manipulation - layering, graphics, drawing, airbrushing, twisting, combining.... etc., etc., etc.... the sky is the limit.
mdbassman wrote:
Tom,
I have been/was using PSE for about 4 years now and have decided that I need to move to something a bit more condusive to very good post processing. So Santa dropped off CS3. I have heard way too many detractions on CS4 so I stayed with CS3.
lynda.com and deke.com have wonderful one-on-one turorials on CS3 which is what I desperately need to learn. The learning curve for some is very steep going from PSE to CS3.
Good luck!
Dan
Santa got me my CS3 copy on Ebay for 60-70% off list price. Full blown, Adobe certified copy! Let me know if you need the link....Show more →
what did you hear about CS4?
It seems same or better to me (direct built-in ACR support for the newest cams, much better contrast tool, etc.)
Ian.Dobinson wrote:
Wrong
The 50D is supported by the ACR in CS3 if you download the latest (and last) ACR for CS3. Anything that comes after the 50D (ie 5d2 onwards) is supported in CS4 only (or as you say the DNG conv)
However for 90% of what CS3 does Elements does just as well. When you outgrow elements get the then current Full PS.
Also as others have stated Lightroom is a great program also but I would still want some other form of PS to go along with it
oops yeah i was thinking of the 5dmkii since i just got one
yeah the 50D is supported (although the noise is not handled well so IF adobe ever fixed that up then you would need to use DNG to get that, but who knows if they will or if getting around DNG is worth all that money)
CS4 is a HUGE improvement over CS3, both in efficiency of the program and new features. I split the cost with my Dad and I'm so happy we upgraded. I thought CS2 was horrible, CS3 improved where 2 was hurting ... but 4, okay, now I'm happy. Great, great program. I don't see upgrading for some time. The whole interface changed (with non destructive adjustment layers and Bridge is well improved). The books/guides are just now starting to catch up, but frankly, the best way to get involved is take a community college course on the basics (we have online ones here). It's very, very helpful and usually quite reasonable (PS ~ if you sign up for the class too, you can get the Educational Version of CS4, which is the full program, at quite a savings - but I believe now Adobe limits your upgrades with Educational Versions).
But if you're not ready for the enormity of the learning experience of Photoshop CS4 (never has been an easy or particularly intuitive program in my opinion, and I found out that it's designed by engineers, not photographers/artists, so they just think differently), I do think Elements is pretty darn good. I have also dabbled in Lightroom and think it has far more potential than most people realize. It's been upgraded since my version though, so I cannot speak to the newest one.
So for just getting feet wet, Lightroom and/or Elements are good ones ... but if you think you'll eventually take the plunge anyway and can affod the $$, go for CS4.
I'd recommend Lightroom if you're just starting out with post work. The supplied DPP, although free, is limited in control/adjustment. The best part about Lightroom is that it's non-destructive editing (parametric editing) means that your original files remain unaffected. Use the free Adobe trial period after reading how-to articles and watching Micheal Tapes videos about Lightroom. I use Photoshop for critical bit-level editing but find I use Lightroom 90% of the time for my photo work.
Roy Pertchik wrote:
I stand by my recommendations, which included long descriptions of what the software packages actually do (above), so the OP can choose what he needs.
Bear in mind that CS4 and Lightroom and Elements 7 now use the same Raw conversion engine - which is not what you stated in your main post
Matt Philbin wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
How many of the people that posted above (insisting that Adobe products are necessary) are professional photographers? How many of you take portraits? Personally, my interests are currently mostly in wildlife and city/landscape shooting. With only a couple small exceptions (like straightening horizons, which DPP can't do), I barely use Photoshop. For recreational or hobby use, is PS3, PS4, or Lightroom really needed?
Needed, no, but knowing what i know now, if I were just starting out I would want to start with Lightroom 2. I own & know how to use Photoshop, but use LR most of the time. It is certainly worth it for ANYONE interested in digital photography, if nothing else than to process images without degrading them and to keep everything organized. It will save you a lot of time in the end.
wilsonprince wrote:
... and would like to be able to watermark/sign/caption some of my photos. Too bad Lightroom can't be the host software for Genuine Fractals.
Check the Mogrify plugin for LR2, you can do some watermarking with it (+ borders and some other nice stuff that's not possible with LR2 straight away).
Sorry to be long-winded, but to add what I said regarding Lightroom earlier:
Lightroom is more than just another RAW converter which, it seems to me, so many people get hung up on and comment about. It does more than just convert RAW but I keep seeing this insinuation whenever the topic arises. For example, I recommended Lightroom to a fellow pro who, after trying it for a few weeks, she proceeds to tell me that she got the same results with Adobe's Bridge and completely ignored the organizational aspect of the program. Sigh. They use the same converter as has been stated.
What Lightroom gives the photographer, beyond the wonderful parametric editing, is an outstanding organization tool (I said goodbye to Photo Mechanic), a RAW converter, a slide show presentation tool, and an ability to quickly search for a specific photo shot with a specific (by serial number) camera with a specific lens and specific date. I find this invaluable if a client asks me to find a shot of something I did using "that big honking white lens you have".
I like adding all my key words and the fact that the information is easily archived in sidecar files in case I migrate away from Lightroom (not likely) or want to further utilize the image in other programs. I highly recommend Lightroom to beginners even if they only use it for the organizational aspects of tracking their images. To delve into its powerful editing tools only adds to its utility without the complexity of duplicating the editing in Photoshop. Photoshop has more "power" for editing pixels, but Lightroom is worlds faster at most of the general editing tasks a photographer does.
I may have missed it, but are you on a PC or Mac? If you are on a Mac, definitely check out Apple Aperture. I tried Aperture and Lightroom and found Aperture to be more in line w/ my normal workflow and it's raw conversion is beautiful. Also the raw engine is free w/ Apple so no worries about your current software not being able to handle a future release of Canon raw. Definitely worth trying, along w/ Lightroom, to see which you like better.
Gary Petersen wrote:
If money is tight get Elements. If not get CS4.
I don't think there's a better answer to be had than this one. If I could see into the future and tell you that you would certainly stick with photography, I'd say only consider CS4, but if you're just getting your feet wet, save the money and buy nice glass.
