p.11 #1 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I've got to run just now (to catch a movie) but I'm really interested in the photos Carsten. I've got a Hasselblad (millenium edition) with three lenses ... and I'm having a blast with it. The negatives are astounding ... though my scanning turn it into something far from its potential. With the Leica for one type of shooting ... I may in the future go to large format again for the other extreme - but right now it is a potent combo which covers what I'm looking for.
I've got the M4-P for the weekend (free rental - that is great in keeping a good relationship with a local shop versus lowest online price, eh?) and so tomorrow I'm going to burn 5-10 rolls. I may buy this M4-P rather than the Ikon. There is just "something" about shooting with it. I know you understand.
p.11 #3 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Ulrik, that certainly is not a problem for us, but for you Another reason to be on our side I like the Zeiss Ikon a lot, and own a Voigtländer lens, but the Leica rangefinder and lenses are just really special when well adusted and in good condition, and IMO the M cameras are much more beautiful than the less sensuous, but more modern Ikon. I do own Contax equipment, and it is great in its own right, but the Leica stuff is just a tick nicer, IMO. Note the 'O' in IMO, I do not claim to be in possession of any universal truth here.
Pavel, I just posted my workflow to my blog, including scanning. The description is very basic, and entirely focused on the equipment I am using, but it is also quite complete. I would be interested to see your comments, here or on my blog, if you have any.
p.11 #4 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Some random thoughts to share on this interesting, if not touchy, subject:
If you haven't shot a leica, it will be difficult or impossible to understand the experience. I didn't get Porsches until i drove one. I didn't get really high end kitchen knives until i used one. I didn't get really amazing hifi until somebody showed me. Same with leica. There's a je ne sais quoi about the experience. Usually the results speak for themselves.
I wish somebody would build a digital Contax G body. Oh i love those lenses.
It's great when you can get close to a result for much less expenditure. Sure an XSI with the 50mm f1.8 lens is a powerful combo for ridiculously little money, and absolutely fantastic shots can be done with it. It's so great such effective tools are available to the masses for so little.
I don't think Leica is about getting 80 or 95% to a result. It's about the bleeding edge of quality and interface. Yes, there's diminishing returns - paying 10X the price for a few percent increase in performance (usually more.. but sometimes it can be that thin) - but that's what happens at the extreme limits of these things.
Is it worth it? Of course, look at us jammering on about how great this stuff is.
There is a darker side. I call these people 'Leicaheads'. They fraternize camera swap meets, wearing their cameras around their neck - while inside a school gymnasium under fluorescent lighting! - fronting their Leicabling like twirly-moustache snap-hop stars. Why oh why? Are you really going to take a picture in there?
p.11 #5 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
It is the implication that those not using Leicas are spec jockeys I dislike I have to admit that I prefer the newest Ikon design-wise over the leicas, the superior rangefinder-accurancy is also nice.
The thing is that you can get far better nature-detail-shots with a a900/d3x/5d mkII, and for sports, a d3/1d mk III/d700 is better etc. I think it is a horses for courses thing, for me a fullframe rangefinder would be a lightweight street/vacation/concert-alternative. As I shoot 90% of my shots at larger apertures than 1.8, at higher isos than 800 and with manual focus.
p.11 #6 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Perhaps it is better said that spec jockeys don't get "Leica." If you are about specs ... well ... what but Canon?
Leica, you have to appreciate (only after you have lived with it) not for the "specs" but for the "whole" of it.
So much of this forum is a bunch of engineers looking for which is the best. That leaves the hard to explain Gestalt out of it.
But if it's not your cup of tea ... well, move on ... and stay contentedly perplexed. After all ... a DSLR is better of course. I mean, faster frame rate, higher megapixels ... what are those Leicaphiles talking about.
p.11 #7 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I feel that vickiB here also is a bit condecending and implies a lot about those that don't "get" leica.
They are different tools, but not inherintly "better" or "worse", just "different". For some people a nikon d700 is great (for me for instance). There is no magic to neither a d700 OR a leica, just different design philosophies and goals.
I just don't get the "we _know_, you don't"-attitude of few here.. I have shot quite a bit of film on rangefinders, both 35mm and medium format, i love rangefinders, but they are not magic.
p.11 #10 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
ulrikft wrote:
I just don't get the "we _know_, you don't"-attitude of few here.. I have shot quite a bit of film on rangefinders, both 35mm and medium format, i love rangefinders, but they are not magic.
I hope you don't include me in those. I fully understand that some people, even after trying a Leica, might not want one.
On the other hand, in this thread at least, I feel that you sometimes come across in the other extreme, i.e. there is always something better than Leica and Leica owners are just showing off. This is also not the case. There is definitely a "Leica look", just like many other cameras have a unique look. Some good Nikon and Canon (and so on) lenses can give similar results, but no lens lineup so consistently has this look as the Leica M lens lineup. The size, handling, construction quality, and haptic feel are all rather unique as well, and any of these are good reasons for owning a Leica.
In the end, it is just a question of preference, for those who know both sides. Those who know only one side will never be able to contribute much to this discussion, other than their view of their own camera.
p.11 #11 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
telyt wrote:
It's a left brain / right brain thing. "Left brains" don't "get" the "Right Brains".
Not always a Left Brain/Right Brain dichotomy. I've shot with Leica's. Nice bodies but other than the silky-smooth wind-on there's nothing in the experience that my FM2n doesn't do better (and an F3 has at least as smooth a wind-on). For a lot of people there's simply no there there with the Leica experience. It's not about simplicity, plenty of options for simple out there. It's not the admittedly excellent build quality, any Nikon F/F2/F3 is as well built as are the Canon F1's and Contax RTS's. There is something to the small/quiet package of course and RF's are a unique and interesting way of working, but I can get that from a SP or an Ikon as well. The M's built a lot of their reputation during the 30 year gap where they were the only option for a new interchangeable-lens RF. Prior to that they were simply one of a few options and there really was no going on about the 'Leica' experience, because they were simply another tool.
And of course there's the lens side of things. Some people (including myself) just don't like the way Leica glass renders. If I ever bought an M (which may happen, if I do get an RF body at some point it would be either an Ikon or an M4-2/M4-P), there'd be ZM glass on it instead of Leica glass.
p.11 #12 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I'm used to Leica M6's. I'm also used to a Pentax LX. I now use a 5DII and it is easy to use, both with its zooms and with the beautiful little Olympus primes. It takes superb images, and I love converting them to B&W. I have nothing against the 5DII.
However, it is not an M6, and every time I use the 5DII, I wish I had the equivalent sensor in an M6 body. There is something about the rangefinder gestalt: its moderate size, its bright finder, seeing beyond the frames, the snappy, accurate focus, the quiet, immediate shutter, the discrete form, that is a complete user experience. Plus, when I'm not shooting with the M, I hardly know I have it with me.
p.11 #13 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I'd never consider a less than full-frame rangefinder and the M8 is such a poorly thought out camera. Having to use IR filters on every lens and a generations old sensor make it a poor choice over most anything. If I were to shoot a rangefinder I'd go with an Ikon, M6 or maybe an M7. Film in rangefinders is much more versatile than the ancient sensor in the M8.
Jun 09, 2009 at 09:08 AM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.11 #14 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
>Some people (including myself) just don't like the way Leica glass renders. If I ever bought an M (which may happen, if I do get an RF body at some point it would be either an Ikon or an M4-2/M4-P), there'd be ZM glass on it instead of Leica glass.
I'm with you. I put natural contrast, neutral bokeh and 3D before rich colour, creamy bokeh, and low LoCA.
>...every time I use the 5DII, I wish I had the equivalent sensor in an M6 body.
I agree, and there's no point getting misty-eyed about the lenses and the 'haptics' if the sensor is a frustrating limiter. (I actually prefer Canon's and Nikon's long-term holdability too, and that's an important 'haptic').
A full frame M-mount rangefinder with a cutting edge sensor would be awesome, but it doesn't exist yet, and there are no guarantees that it ever will. Meanwhile, if I had to use a rangefinder today I would go back to my old favourite: http://www.kenrockwell.com/mamiya/images/m6clps.jpg
p.11 #16 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
It's amazing how small the Mamiya M6 looks when held like that with the lens retracted. It is still pretty much of a lump though when compared to the leica. Pity about the non-repairability of the rewind lever problem, if it develops.
Jun 09, 2009 at 03:58 PM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.11 #17 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
p.11 #18 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Wow, disc film. I haven't seen that in ages.
After having used a Mamiya 6 for over a year, I am rather curious about a Leica someday. But merely as a film camera - very unlikely I'd buy a digital version given the asking price, the need for glass to cover certain ranges, and what I shoot when I do it for pay (Canon EOS D-SLR, of course!)
Back to the Mamiya 6 - corner to corner sharpness is just amazing with the 50mm :-)
p.11 #20 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
telyt wrote:
It's a left brain / right brain thing. "Left brains" don't "get" the "Right Brains".
+1: Artists and accountants can use the same pencil and will come up with totally different resluts.
You pick up a camera and shoot with it. If the process feels right, the camera is right for you. If not, it's wrong. simple. The technical details are inconsequential.
I like the Zeiss Ikon a lot, and own a Voigtländer lens, but the Leica rangefinder and lenses are just really special when well adusted and in good condition, and IMO the M cameras are much more beautiful than the less sensuous, but more modern Ikon. I do own Contax equipment, and it is great in its own right, but the Leica stuff is just a tick nicer, IMO. Note the 'O' in IMO, I do not claim to be in possession of any universal truth here.
I have shot quite a bit of film on rangefinders, both 35mm and medium format, i love rangefinders, but they are not magic.