Archive 2008 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
brainiac Offline [X]
p.10 #1 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Mike Hatam wrote:
One more candid from the party, and a shot of my daughter with four of her friends (taken over the weekend). These were both with the 28 cron.
Beautiful pictures Mike, but this philistine isn't seeing anything here that can't be done on an XSi for a fraction of the price.
p.10 #2 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Sorry that the difference doesn't come across in these web jpgs Richard, but it is real. I shoot my 5DII and M8 side-by-side in many settings, and the B&W conversions are different (using LR2). Probably because the two cameras treat colors differently, which translates to different tonalities in the B&W conversion.
Also, the great high ISO noise advantage of the 5DII is less critical in B&W. I find that in low light (high ISO), I can shoot my 5DII and process in color, but am restricted to processing in B&W on the M8, as the color versions are too noisy for my taste.
As I've said before, the web jpgs may not appear any different, but the files from these to cameras are significantly different, and you can see it on a large 30" monitor or on a large print. They are both excellent cameras, each with strengths and weaknesses, but definitely different.
p.10 #3 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I want to believe you, since I've shot with Leica for years and much prefer the rangefinder ergonomics and size. However, I recently tried an M8 at 1250 (Unfortunately only JPEGS) and a Canon 5DII. In converting them both to B&W the difference was like night and day. The Canon was less noisy at 6400, had higher resolution and better tonality.
To be honest, I thought the M8 files at 1250 were poor once converted, and the 2500 files were awful, and I normally use and love Tri-X, so I like grain. I found that there were blotches or spots that were like clusters of noise, which made skin look diseased, and were almost impossible to remove. As I say, maybe this was just the JPEG engine, but nevertheless, it was really bad.
p.10 #4 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I see the same thing. My Canon 5D doesn't yield as good b&w as my M8 . The only thing that comes close to M8 b&w is the nikon believe it or not. I had the D300 using b&w conversion in CS2 and they look good.
p.10 #5 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Well maybe it's really not "fair" to compare a 1.3x M8 Leica sensor to FF sensors. But I want to observe that if the Leica M lenses have a edge wide open they have to because the M8 ISO performance is less than the Nikon and Canon's FF best (about 1.5 stops?). Also:
I'm a fan of fast WA lenses but the 1.3x M8 crop means there's no Leica M 35mm F1.4 or 28 F2 anymore because a 28 is a 35 and a 35 is a 50 (45?). So you lose a stop on each FL. Also the vaunted 21mm becomes an, effective, 28mm F2.8 while the FF Canon mounts a wider, faster 24mm F1.4 (MKII).
So that's 2 stops of lens speed and 1.5 stops of sensor speed which gives a FF Canon with a 24mm F1.4 lens a 3.5 stop advantage over the M8 (M8.2) with the 21. Sorry folks, at least for me, you just can't ignore 3.5 stops. Is that a special shooting situation? Well M8 fans quote their own special shooting situations.
The Leica is supposed to be better for the "people thing" but the dirty little secret is that things that move are harder to get into (MF) focus with a rangefinder (without AF). So those F1.4 shots are often OOF (as are much of the posted examples). So that means, to me, M lenses belong on film Leicas in glass cases. And, I'm not sorry to admit, I really like the WYSWYG thing about DSLRs-AF and IS isn't bad either. So Flame me!
p.10 #7 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
SoundHound wrote:
I'm a fan of fast WA lenses but the 1.3x M8 crop means there's no Leica M 35mm F1.4 or 28 F2 anymore because a 28 is a 35 and a 35 is a 50 (45?).
I guess you haven't heard about the Leica 21mm and 24mm Summilux-M ASPH lenses? EDIT: Oops, I was typing my post when you realized the error.
wolfloid wrote:
... I recently tried an M8 at 1250 (Unfortunately only JPEGS) and a Canon 5DII.
The Leica M8 jpgs are not the camera's best output. The M8 is optimized for a RAW workflow.
p.10 #8 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I have owned a Leica M8 since late 2006 (traded in my 5D, which I found vaguely disappointing), and lived through the quality issues and the recall, as well as all the firmware updates, but for me, it has been the right choice. I love the haptics, and the lenses are to die for. I don't think that there is another as consistently high-quality lens lineup around. I tend to use either 28 Cron + 50 Lux ASPH, or 35 Lux ASPH + 75 Lux, and throw in the CV15 when I need wide. I had the WATE, but the workflow got to me, and it is for sale now.
It is not for everyone though. The resolution is very good for the sensor size, but as Brainiac will repeatedly point out: there is no substitute for raw megapixels, so if 10MP is not enough for your needs, look elsewhere. If you need live view, macro or tele, look elsewhere. If your budget is constrained, or you dislike needing an IR filter on every lens, look elsewhere. If you need a rainproof camera, look elsewhere. Lots of reasons to look elsewhere.
However, if you like rangefinders, and want a compact, high-quality kit with unmatched haptics, and lenses to knock you flat, then this is for you. It is awesome as a travel camera. The results still wow me.
p.10 #9 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I would like to say that Carsten has always been very honest about the M8's strengths, and has a very objective view of it. He uses his beautifully. He is the very first person I would go to for advice about the camera, although he will probably be as surprised as me if I eventually buy one ;-)
p.10 #10 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
carstenw wrote:
I have owned a Leica M8 since late 2006 (traded in my 5D, which I found vaguely disappointing), and lived through the quality issues and the recall, as well as all the firmware updates, but for me, it has been the right choice. I love the haptics, and the lenses are to die for. I don't think that there is another as consistently high-quality lens lineup around. I tend to use either 28 Cron + 50 Lux ASPH, or 35 Lux ASPH + 75 Lux, and throw in the CV15 when I need wide. I had the WATE, but the workflow got to me, and it is for sale now.
It is not for everyone though. The resolution is very good for the sensor size, but as Brainiac will repeatedly point out: there is no substitute for raw megapixels, so if 10MP is not enough for your needs, look elsewhere. If you need live view, macro or tele, look elsewhere. If your budget is constrained, or you dislike needing an IR filter on every lens, look elsewhere. If you need a rainproof camera, look elsewhere. Lots of reasons to look elsewhere.
However, if you like rangefinders, and want a compact, high-quality kit with unmatched haptics, and lenses to knock you flat, then this is for you. It is awesome as a travel camera. The results still wow me.
p.10 #11 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
lol. can't believe i stumbled upon this thread.
it is ridiculous how people can compare a rangefinder to an SLR. just plain ridiculous. they are both two different categories.
when it comes to the lenses though... i'm pretty darn sure the leica blows any other lens out of the water. it's a leica. accept it as the mythical creature it is.
p.10 #12 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
adamjohari wrote:
lol. can't believe i stumbled upon this thread.
it is ridiculous how people can compare a rangefinder to an SLR. just plain ridiculous. they are both two different categories.
when it comes to the lenses though... i'm pretty darn sure the leica blows any other lens out of the water. it's a leica. accept it as the mythical creature it is.
Well, aside from the fact that they basically sell into the same market for very similar needs. Both the M8 and 5D/5DmII are popular with serious amateur and semi-pro shooters shooting street/candid work.
The two are very different approaches to the same basic goal. But since the end use is much the same they can and should be compared.
Personally, I think Nikon needs to do a S-mount RF with the D300 sensor.
p.10 #13 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I don't see how the m8 and the 5D/II are for the same need. I can see them being around the same price though, but for different reasons. Although, I pretty am an amateur when it comes to photography. And I'm just like everyone else when it comes to saving money Which is why I won't buy any of em...
p.10 #14 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
dont do it. wait for m9. m8 is inferior and delicate. I know, I havbe had 3 and now I only shoot with MP when it comes to Leica. You could not give me an M8 these days.
p.10 #15 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Why do so many pass off their opinions as universal truths? I have had an M8 since Nov. 6, 2006, and would only give it up for an M9, but that doesn't mean I think it is the best camera for all people.
The M8 has lost most of its potential value by now, and a second-hand one isn't likely to actually lose anyone much money, if sold again within 6 months, so why not try it? I know that little nagging voice which won't shut up until something is tried, so unless there is real financial hardship, there is little to lose by trying. Some people love the camera, others know within 38 or 43 seconds that they hate it, others have to buy and sell three times before they know what they want. I held it in my hands in the store, and knew that I would accept the necessary compromises to have it.
I sold my 5D to buy the M8 and for two long years, it was all I needed. Art, travel, portrait, everything. Now I am finally getting to the point where I want something with tele, macro and T/S capability, but rather than picking up a 35mm SLR, I am trying to go whole hog and buy an MFDB for my Contax 645. I don't really see the need for a 35mm DSLR. These cameras are the best compromises there are, but almost no matter what you want to do, there is something better out there. The only exception would be ISO 12800...
p.10 #16 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
There are lots of reasons not to like the M8, but I must say IQ isn't one of them. For some reason, the files out are awfully nice. Beware the super fast lenses on it, as the lack of DOF becomes an issue. You can get f 2.5 lenses new or a nice Elmarit 28 2.8 which is just fine. The 28/2 is perhaps a sweeter lens, but has increased size as an issue. Faster than f2 is much fun, until you get home and look at just how thin the focus plane is, and where it ended up (not usually where you wanted it). The reserve DOF shooting at f2 is useful, to be sure.
My favorite lenses on the camera are the 28, the 50/2 (such as sweetheart), the CV 75 2.5 (great aura), and CV 15. Something in the 18 or 21 range would be the next step. Had the 35/2, never used it. And the 28/35/50 is f4 (too slow) and off on balance for the camera (too heavy). THat said, it was a neat lens to have, but not nec. Sold it for an old MFDB (along with some other stuff) and never looked back.
The newer Leica lenses are sharp, and very cleverly built. However, they can be a bit colder than some of the older lenses - which remain with great appeal. The M8 is a specialty camera, one that can be used a lot to handhold and get stunning images. Tech'ly, there are many far better ones out there - but it has its place.
p.10 #17 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Geoffrey, out of curiousity, which MF system and back do you have? I have the Contax 645, 35/3.5, 80/2 and 120/4 Macro, and plan on getting the 210 at some point. I am hoping to buy a Sinar e54LV.
p.10 #18 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
"Faster than f2 is much fun, until you get home and look at just how thin the focus plane is, and where it ended up (not usually where you wanted it)."
This just shows how different we humans are I think 90% of my shots are 1.2-1.8
Most 1.2-1.4 actually. And part of the appeal a future fullframe rangefinder holds for me, is the weight/size advantage if i want a 35 1.2, 50 1.1 and 75 1.4
p.10 #19 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Well, I had only shot a M4-P before and wish I had it now ... but After two days spent with an M8 and going carefully over the files .... I sold my D700 and a bunch of glass .... to move up. Many don't get it ... and that is fine by me .... but I love the way ones shoots and thinks so differently with a RF versus the D700 and all the DSLR's. The D700 has been the best image maker out of all the 14 or so canon, olympus and nikon cameras, and arguably better than the M8 as well, just did not stir passion in me the way the Leica does.
It is not only about wonderfully noise free (character free?) files or how fast it sprays while one prays ... or any other absolute number.
If one is not photographer enough to work with any of the current brands today ... well, they simply are not photographer enough; more likely a gear chaser. No current equiptment really gets in the way in IQ terms if you get to know how to get the best results out of the files. No; don't tell me about how brand X this year is so much what is needed - and next year - junk. The M8 has several virtues. The IQ is distinct. The way of working is extraordinarily effective within its limits .... and, speaking for myself ... it makes me feel like I am taking photographs in a way that has been missing with all these Uber-cameras that I have gone through.
I have to say that I'm starting to feel that way about film over digital as well (likely an unpopular sentiment here) but hey ... its a personal thing, right? So what I really wanted was a The Ikon or M4-P is next.
Spec jockey will not ever likely understand the fuss about Leica, and it is not a camera for everyone. But nothing sings like it, nothing feels like it and nothing has quite that subtle look to the shot. Count me as a happy convert.
p.10 #20 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I am also on a film kick, although mostly because my M8 is in for its update. I am shooting my M6 and Contax 645, as well as an older Hasselblad 2000FC/M, and enjoying the hell out of it. Developing the film, scanning the results... A few images here: Photo Blog
Which is why I won't buy any of em...
I think 90% of my shots are 1.2-1.8