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Archive 2008 · FX vs. DX throwdown...

  
 
Kerry Pierce
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p.4 #1 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


ulrikft wrote:
That sounds like very bad science to me I'm afraid..


It is science and few, other than you, disagree with it.


"Everyone can claim that science is on their side. Showing that it is is hence the key to "proving" anything.


Yes, anyone can claim anything, like the earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese, but that doesn't alter the facts or make such statements true. Andre's statements are factual. He is not claiming something akin to saying that the earth is flat.

Other than being argumentative for sake of arguing, just what is it that you want "proven"? There are several that own both the d300 and d700, for example, who could provide actual DX/FX comparison shots. What "exactly" is it that you think the d700 can do that the d300 can not, and vice versa, that has not already been noted? I'll also refer you to my earlier blind print test post, if you'd care to make a wager on that specific topic.

This FX vs DX stuff has been going on for years and it has always amazed me what silly things come out of it. I started shooting as a partner in a wedding and portrait business back in 1972. We used both 35mm and MF cameras. There was never any nonsense about one format being "superior". It was quite simple, at least to us and all of the others that we knew in photography, that they were different tools for different applications, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, with some overlap. It is no different today.



Nov 11, 2008 at 01:31 PM
Sam Bennett
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p.4 #2 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Other than being argumentative for sake of arguing, just what is it that you want "proven"? There are several that own both the d300 and d700, for example, who could provide actual DX/FX comparison shots. What "exactly" is it that you think the d700 can do that the d300 can not, and vice versa, that has not already been noted?


This whole thing started because Andre claimed in another thread that the differences that I was referring to between FX and DX couldn't be seen "on an LCD" and would require a large print before it was evident (he used 20x16", didn't specify a viewing distance). Initially the argument seemed to revolve around "sharpness". This example shows that the differences are readily apparent at web sizes - differences not only in sharpness, but with contrast, color rendition, CA (birefringence in this case), etc. So what I'd like to see is Andre's proof to back up that claim, since I seem to have pretty roundly disproven it, despite the caveats in testing.

Kerry Pierce wrote:
This FX vs DX stuff has been going on for years and it has always amazed me what silly things come out of it. I started shooting as a partner in a wedding and portrait business back in 1972. We used both 35mm and MF cameras. There was never any nonsense about one format being "superior". It was quite simple, at least to us and all of the others that we knew in photography, that they were different tools for different applications, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, with some overlap. It is no different today.


I agree with you completely. All I'm doing is identifying practical differences, I'm not judging each format. For the record, if I could have gotten a DX camera that had ISO performance that was identical to the D700, I would have bought it instead. FX by and large is more problematic for what I make money photographing.



Nov 11, 2008 at 01:46 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.4 #3 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Sam Bennett wrote:
This whole thing started because Andre claimed in another thread that the differences that I was referring to between FX and DX couldn't be seen "on an LCD" and would require a large print before it was evident (he used 20x16",


Yes, I tried to read that thread, but lost interest. I tend to have a pragmatic view of all of this stuff. I regularly and routinely print to 12x18 and smaller. I've made a few prints at 20x30. All of my large prints are made from shots taken at lower ISOs, usually base ISO. I don't know how many people routinely print large from high ISO shots, but I would expect that they're a small minority. As such, I agree with Andre, in that any differences in most situations, at normal print sizes is not a significant point of difference. Sure, there certainly are situations where the point of significance would be worthwhile, but that would not encompass normal photographer's needs, IMO.


I agree with you completely. All I'm doing is identifying practical differences, I'm not judging each format. For the record, if I could have gotten a DX camera that had ISO performance that was identical to the D700, I would have bought it instead. FX by and large is more problematic for what I make money photographing.


Making money, requires attention to bottom line, which entails much more than just camera format choice. For the vast majority of my current needs, I can easily get by with the d300. I just bought a d700, because it gives me additional capability, perhaps adding a profit source, which may or may not prove to be a financially sound decision. One of the reasons I got it, was because it effectively doubles the amount of lenses that I have at my disposal, because I intend to use it in tandem with the d300.

Time will tell whether or not I made the right decision there, but it certainly is a lot cheaper buying a body than it is to buy and carry another set of lenses.....



Nov 11, 2008 at 03:03 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #4 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


ulrikft wrote:
That sounds like very bad science to me I'm afraid..

"the answer is this, beacause the laws of physics say so"...

I could say the same, and claim that the burden of proof is on you. And that you are the one in conflict with the laws of physics. Your statements so far are just that, statements, unfounded and un-documented, you have yet to link to any peer-reviewd reports.

You may try to gain respect by claiming and pointing out that you are a scientist, but do not try to claim that you adhere to rigid scientific rules, and do not
...Show more


http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/

Suffient references should be given within, but everything I have said agrees with this site and everything on this site is generally known science & technology.

Regards,
Andre




Nov 11, 2008 at 03:15 PM
DavidWEGS
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p.4 #5 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Holy cow.

Firstly, let me apologize for upsetting anyone. Not intended I assure you.

On the subject of color due to photosite size, it could simply be that I shoot a lot at higher ISO's and see better color for the same shots from the 700 than a similar shot in the same conditions and with the same settings using a 300. I cannot back this up with anything other than my experience. Sorry.


On the OP's subject:

I took your post to be saying that the FX versus DX formats produce different looks due to the way optics behave on each one. If that is the case, should they not have the same optic? Is that the point and what you wanted to show or were you merely saying that to equate a DX to an FX you needed to use wider apertures to achieve the same DOF and at those apertures the image is degraded? Hope my questions are reasonable and clear..

Best, D.



Nov 11, 2008 at 04:19 PM
ulrikft
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p.4 #6 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Kerry Pierce wrote:
It is science and few, other than you, disagree with it.

Yes, anyone can claim anything, like the earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese, but that doesn't alter the facts or make such statements true. Andre's statements are factual. He is not claiming something akin to saying that the earth is flat.

Other than being argumentative for sake of arguing, just what is it that you want "proven"? There are several that own both the d300 and d700, for example, who could provide actual DX/FX comparison shots. What "exactly" is it that you
...Show more

I don't think you understood my point, it is not the message or the meaning of his post/arguments I'm disagreeing with, it is the scholarly method he uses, his methology.

"this is science beacause I say it is", is just not good method. "this is science BEACAUSE..." is.

The fact that his statements are factual is irrelevant to my objections, When people blow their own horn about being scientific and try to lend more weight to their arguments, they better adhere to the scientific standard of providing sources and reasoning to support that view.

Get my point now?



Nov 11, 2008 at 04:50 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #7 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


ulrikft wrote:
I don't think you understood my point, it is not the message or the meaning of his post/arguments I'm disagreeing with, it is the scholarly method he uses, his methology.

"this is science beacause I say it is", is just not good method. "this is science BEACAUSE..." is.

The fact that his statements are factual is irrelevant to my objections, When people blow their own horn about being scientific and try to lend more weight to their arguments, they better adhere to the scientific standard of providing sources and reasoning to support that view.

Get my point now?


I provided the generally known rules that I was applying. Also, this conversation has taken place in two threads, in the other of which I provided a link to the above mentioned web site. Another point is, that when having a discussion and certain knowledge is ubiquitous, it does not need continual reference, especially where this is a conversaion and not a peer reviewed paper. Finally, I established my credentials an knowledgable in the field and therefore am myself, a source in the context of the current conversation.

You are grasping at straws and making an argument for arguments sake.



Nov 11, 2008 at 05:11 PM
Sam Bennett
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p.4 #8 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


DavidWEGS wrote:
I took your post to be saying that the FX versus DX formats produce different looks due to the way optics behave on each one. If that is the case, should they not have the same optic?


That was never the point I was trying to make. The more likely case involves different optics. But even when the optics are of similar quality, you would still see similar differences.

DavidWEGS wrote:
Is that the point and what you wanted to show or were you merely saying that to equate a DX to an FX you needed to use wider apertures to achieve the same DOF and at those apertures the image is degraded?


Yes, that is what I'm saying. And again, it's most applicable at the extremes of available apertures, since that's where the most compromise is in terms of lens design. In the case where you're using something like the 24-70/2.8, but at difference focal lengths and apertures the differences are much less pronounced. I know a lot of people who use fast primes simply because they're able to get a certain "look" that is largely due to shallow DoF.



Nov 11, 2008 at 05:19 PM
DavidWEGS
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p.4 #9 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Sam,

So, your point regarding FX vs. DX was what then? Can you state it more clearly, as in the original post you say it was to show how the DX does something where FX does not, or vice versa. I am just a bit unclear about the point of the test when using the same body in crop mode and using different glass and using different apertures. So many things changed but none of them include showing anything whatsoever between an FX and a DX sensor as the same sensor was used in the experiment.

Why not do this experiment using an FX sensor, then using the same setup (glass, FL, aperture, lighting, SS, distance to subject, etc.) on a real DX body shoot it again. Then you have a throwdown that means something as a true comparison. This test does not.

Using the same optics on the different sensors would have, and does produce similar results. In fact, I tested this and found that if you don't change anything other than the body (you keep the same piece of glass, same aperture, same distance to subject and same FL if using a zoom), the resulting DOF is LESS on the DX sensor. Odd but there it is, and if you test this yourself using a ruler or some way to reasonably measure the DOF, that is what you too will find. I will see if I can dig that test up when I next get to my office where I have those images.

I guess what I am saying here is that what I see, is an attempt to show the benefit of one sensor over the other. Unfortunately, even though there are definite benefits to each, this test does not show those strengths/weaknesses as the same sensor was used for both shots, and a different piece of glass, different FL, distance to subject and different aperture was used. I don't think it gives a real comparison or impression of how the two behave differently, which is what I understand your original point to be.

The thing is, the pixel density of the DX sensor yields better detail than that of the FX sensor WHEN used with the exact same FOV and everything else on both bodies.

However, when you adjust the FL on the DX to replicate the FX FOV, you have a more level playing field. Where that becomes less useful is when you up the iso's to the 800+ range as the FX sensor can actually gather more light per pixel and therefore holds detail/contrast/color better than the DX can.

It's all kind of an apples to oranges thing anyhow IMO.

I use both sensors for their relative strengths. DX is not inferior to FX at the same MP's when shot at low ISO's, in fact it looks better in some cases. Additionally, FX is of no advantage when they become equal in the size of the photo site either. IOW, if we get a 24mp FF cam and use it in DX mode, you will have a direct comparison and in that case the FF looses its high ISO advantage, or any other perceived advantage except for more MP's mean better printed product.

Anyhow, food for thought, and its fun to discuss the veritable benefits of one and the other.






Nov 12, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Sam Bennett
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p.4 #10 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


I've stated and restated it about 5 times. I'm done with the subject. I will do this again when I have the 50/1.4G and a D300 to limit the number of variables involved, despite the fact that I don't think it matters much.


Nov 12, 2008 at 11:42 AM
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