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Archive 2008 · FX vs. DX throwdown...

  
 
DavidWEGS
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p.3 #1 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Makten wrote:
Anyone that does NOT see the difference and understand its relevance must be blind, and should go do some testing of their own. Great test.


Ok.



Nov 10, 2008 at 01:39 PM
JonasY
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p.3 #2 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


That will show you that the FX-sensor gives one a more shallow dof at the same fov. Dof is a result of fl and aperture, so a 30mm lens will give the same dof regardless of sensor size (but different fov).

Edited on Nov 10, 2008 at 01:46 PM · View previous versions



Nov 10, 2008 at 01:42 PM
Brad Barr
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p.3 #3 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


i dont see a point at all in this...looking at sharpness, dof, color and contrast differences with too many variables...pointless.


Nov 10, 2008 at 01:46 PM
Sam Bennett
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p.3 #4 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


DavidWEGS wrote:
I don't just mean they don't compare at that aperture, I mean the glass used is not comparable in optical quality. If you shot the D300 with the 24-70 on there at F2.8 and then used that same lens on the D700 (given that you must keep the distance to subject, and equivalent FL the same) where your image fills the same visible area, I don't see any quantifiable (theoretic or practical) difference.


I wish I could have done a comparison with a 50mm lens that was optically more similar to the 24-70/2.8G but right now one doesn't really exist. That lens would be the 50/1.4G - I have one on order, and once I get it I will do the test again. But again, the point is to have different apertures to equalize DoF, that's the whole point of the test.

DavidWEGS wrote:
Another thing regarding this is the fact that though there is apparently greater DOF with a crop sensor, that is only true because you adjust your lens or distance to subject to obtain the same FOV. The actual DOF is technically greater on the FX sensor than a DX.


The first instance (adjusting focal length to match framing) is the practical difference between DX and FX, which is why I'm using it.

DavidWEGS wrote:
So, all else being equal, if you take a D300 with a 24-70; at 30mm (for the sake of choosing an FL to compare) and make a shot from say 10'; of subject A; at an aperture of F2.8, then take the D700+24-70; at 45mm (to be comparable in FOV to the D300 shot) and make another shot of the same subject from 10'; at an aperture of F2.8, then we have a comparable test that will show....


It will show two images with similar "quality", but different DoF characteristics. And as I said earlier, if you equalized the DoF by stopping the FX setup down to f/5, you will see a difference (less vignetting, better sharpness) but it won't be nearly as dramatic as the f/1.4 to f/2.5 test - since that really is the "danger zone" for optical quality. I think this is ultimately what Andre is harping on, and he's not really wrong. As I said before if you're a DX guy shooting with a 24-70/2.8 and you're happy, you probably won't see a huge difference on FX in terms of optical quality aside from the obvious DoF differences.

This test really is applicable to people already operating at the extremes of optical performance.

DavidWEGS wrote:
Try that and see what the real world difference is. You may be surprised.


Believe me, I have.



Nov 10, 2008 at 01:58 PM
lou f
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p.3 #5 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


a


Nov 10, 2008 at 02:05 PM
JimFox
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p.3 #6 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Hey Sam,

Cool stuff! It's amazing though how worked up people can get...

I appreciate the effort and the difference that is seen here. And while there is some merit to the less resolution argument of using the crop mode on the D700, in terms of "look" I like that you used the same camera for the test. Otherwise someone here would argue the difference had to do with the sensor in the D300 is different from the D700, so that's where the different look is coming from. This way, the same exact recording surface is used throughout the test.

Jim



Nov 10, 2008 at 02:20 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #7 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


DavidWEGS wrote:
OK, using an FX in DX mode does not in the least compare a DX sensor to an FX sensor.

I have both the D700 and D300. My observation is that when you shoot the same subject with the same effective FL and similar/same DOF, the edge will go to the FX simply because the color is almost always stronger/more vibrant that those from the DX sensor.


This doesn't make sense to me. Why would sensor size have anything to do with color rendition?

I'm not talking about in-camera processing for JPG or picture controls with NX, which will vary from camera to camera, regardless as to format.



Nov 10, 2008 at 02:50 PM
poisonpill
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p.3 #8 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


No offense and nothing personal, but I don't know what this test is supposed to prove, but it doesn't prove anything.

You shot an image with two different lenses with the same sensor. This is a test to compare the 24-70mm to the 50mm if anything.



Nov 10, 2008 at 04:40 PM
DavidWEGS
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p.3 #9 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Kerry, because the larger photosites gather better information essentially. This is a huge technical subject but suffice it to say, the color is better to my eye and I believe its almost entirely due to the photosite size. The larger ones have more density information as I understand it.

If you have both sensors, check it out using the same lens and lighting/subject. Doesn't have to make any sense, just try it.



Nov 10, 2008 at 06:10 PM
DavidWEGS
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p.3 #10 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Sam,

firstly, I hope you are not hearing negative stuff, but rather challenging what your conclusions are.

If this test is really about the apparent differences between FX and Dx, I get that totally. If its about the better contrast/color/sharpness of the 2.8 aperture versus the 1.4 aperture, I get that too. Just not understanding what the point is. I mean, if you are trying to equalize an FX and DX sensor (which if what I understand you to have done, you are not actually doing), surely the experiment requires an FX body and a DX body, right? In addition to which you need to use the same aperture and subject distance, but vary the FL to equalize. Or use the same F-stop and FL but vary the subject distance. In either case, changing the f-stop on even the same lens will yield unequal results purely due to an f-stop increase/decrease.

I hope I am being clear about my observations here. Not poking anyone in the eye, just participating in the discussion.




Nov 10, 2008 at 06:17 PM
DavidWEGS
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p.3 #11 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


OTOH, I may simply have misunderstood what you were doing. ?


Nov 10, 2008 at 06:19 PM
Sam Bennett
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p.3 #12 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


DavidWEGS wrote:
firstly, I hope you are not hearing negative stuff, but rather challenging what your conclusions are.


Equal measure of both, but hey - it's the internet. I've been a presence on photography forums long enough to have a tough skin about this sort of stuff. I don't mind being challenged.

DavidWEGS wrote:
In addition to which you need to use the same aperture and subject distance, but vary the FL to equalize. Or use the same F-stop and FL but vary the subject distance. In either case, changing the f-stop on even the same lens will yield unequal results purely due to an f-stop increase/decrease.


You're not getting the point. The point is a lesson in the practical differences between the two formats. Meaning, the differences you actually see while you're photographing real subjects. If you go around shooting everything at f/1.4 all the time, then the difference you're going to notice is that the FX shots have much shallower DoF, vignetting, soft corners, etc. But if you used to shoot at f/1.4 on a DX camera to get a particular look, you can now shoot at f/2.5 or so with the equivalent focal length, get the same DoF and get better image quality all the way around. And of course, if you're a real DoF nut you get an even wider range on the shallow end.

That doesn't mean FX is "better" than DX, it's just different. The deeper DoF of DX can be a real boon in a lot of situations - so if that means a lot to you, then obviously you would weigh that against what I'm demonstrating here.



Nov 10, 2008 at 08:03 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #13 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


DavidWEGS wrote:
Kerry, because the larger photosites gather better information essentially.


Sorry, but that still doesn't make sense, unless you're talking about very low light level performance. Lower light levels have always produced less vibrant colors, even to your eye. The camera makers now boost color info in-camera, for the higher ISOs, but that doesn't alter the basic properties of color and light.

Filling the photosite wells to full capacity on any sized sensor, would give you maximum performance and wouldn't affect color rendition. I own several dslrs and all of them can be made to over or under saturate the colors, almost to any degree desired. Same goes for the in-camera curves/contrast/sharpness settings.


This is a huge technical subject but suffice it to say, the color is better to my eye and I believe its almost entirely due to the photosite size. The larger ones have more density information as I understand it.


My guess is that you're seeing differences in internal processing, which has always varied from camera to camera, or maybe it's something else. dunno, but the only significant differences between FX and DX are price, high ISO performance, better for more MPs, and to a lesser degree, DOF characteristics.

I'd be more than willing to wager the cost of a couple D3s that people couldn't tell the difference between normal sized prints, say 11x14 or 12x18, from a d300, d200, d700 and d3, with the prints made from a subject taken in good lighting conditions, and displayed in a "blind" test. Of course, that means no trickery or other tom foolery with DOF, lenses or processing.


If you have both sensors, check it out using the same lens and lighting/subject. Doesn't have to make any sense, just try it.


Well, yes, it does have to make sense. I just ordered a d700 to complement my d300, for winter indoor sports. I don't expect to see any difference other than previously mentioned. FX has always had a lot of hype. I didn't buy the hype before and don't buy it now that nikon has FX. There are good reasons to buy FX, assuming you can afford it, but hype isn't among those reasons.



Nov 10, 2008 at 08:30 PM
dj dunzie
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p.3 #14 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


I'm sorry, all, but the only thing I got outta this thread is that Kerry tried to sneak one by me...

Ordered a D700 huh? HA! Well good stuff KP... you'll love it... makes an EXCELLENT compliment in almost every way to the D300... although you'll long for fast top longer glass now. The 300/f2.8VR in my kit is evidence, a lens I never figured I'd need. But I needed it!

Make sure you post up your thoughts! Cheers.



Nov 10, 2008 at 08:43 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #15 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


dj dunzie wrote:
I'm sorry, all, but the only thing I got outta this thread is that Kerry tried to sneak one by me...


heh


Ordered a D700 huh? HA! Well good stuff KP... you'll love it... makes an EXCELLENT compliment in almost every way to the D300... although you'll long for fast top longer glass now. The 300/f2.8VR in my kit is evidence, a lens I never figured I'd need. But I needed it!

Make sure you post up your thoughts! Cheers.


Actually, I was going to buy another d300. I've been asked to start shooting indoor sports again, so wanted another d300. Then I find out that nikon is pulling the same stunt that canon did with the 5d, rebates so soon after release. Cameta auctions has a d700 kit for $2700 US, which includes mb-d10, 8 gig 133x lexar and some other stuff. I figured that price for all that stuff was good enuff. 2 years ago, when I was shooting hockey, I wanted a 40-120 f/2 for the short stuff. Now, I figure that I can use my 120-300 on the d300 and the 70-200vr on the d700 and have a good 2 camera kit to cover at least half of the rink. ( I still want the 40-120 f/2 though.... )

Now I just need to see whether or not these folks are like the others, wanting sports photos of their kids, spouses, but not wanting to pay for them........

Should have the cam by the end of the week, but I expect my thoughts to pretty much mirror yours, except that I don't need any more glass. These folks are gonna have to pony up some serious money before I even consider buying anything better than the 120-300.....



Nov 10, 2008 at 09:17 PM
dj dunzie
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p.3 #16 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Actually, the 120-300 should be excellent on the D700, no? I'd actually throw that on the D700 and go with the 70-200VR on the D300, personally. But I'll let you come up to your own capable conclusions. Right now my "A" hockey kit is 300/f2.8 on the D700, and 70-200VR on the D300. I find the 70-200VR is sweet on the DX, and the 300/f2.8 is a great focal length on the D700, though.

Congrats again, and ENJOY!

(Kinda like telling Larry the Cable Guy to enjoy himself at a Bass Pro Shop, isn't it?)



Nov 10, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #17 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Sorry, but that still doesn't make sense, unless you're talking about very low light level performance. Lower light levels have always produced less vibrant colors, even to your eye. The camera makers now boost color info in-camera, for the higher ISOs, but that doesn't alter the basic properties of color and light.

Filling the photosite wells to full capacity on any sized sensor, would give you maximum performance and wouldn't affect color rendition. I own several dslrs and all of them can be made to over or under saturate the colors, almost to any degree desired. Same goes for
...Show more


Kerry,

You are correct, the FX format bodies will retain colors better in low light and high ISO situations due to the larger pixels. At normal light and ISO levels the advantage is byeond what the eye can see. However, shadow detail due to greater dynamic range should be evident with the FX bodies. Beyond that it is likely different internal image processing and not the sensor that makes the difference.

Cheers,
Andre



Nov 10, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #18 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


dj dunzie wrote:
Actually, the 120-300 should be excellent on the D700, no? I'd actually throw that on the D700 and go with the 70-200VR on the D300, personally. But I'll let you come up to your own capable conclusions. Right now my "A" hockey kit is 300/f2.8 on the D700, and 70-200VR on the D300. I find the 70-200VR is sweet on the DX, and the 300/f2.8 is a great focal length on the D700, though.


Given that you like having the same effective focal length on both cams, you must do all of your shooting from the penalty or team boxes. You can get some good goalie and defensemen shots there. I also have some marks on the side of the lens and the side of my head, from hockey sticks, by shooting there.

Most of my hockey shooting is done through the glass in one of the corners. Clarity and contrast takes a hit by shooting through the glass, but I like getting the face on action shots of the players moving on goal. That's why I used long and short lenses on 2 cams.



Nov 11, 2008 at 10:36 AM
ulrikft
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p.3 #19 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Andre Labonte wrote:
I have nothing to prove. The laws of physics are the laws of physics because generations of scientists and engineers have already done the experiments and proven the lows. The burden of proff lies with the person making claims contrary to the laws of physics. Any peer-reviewed journal and/or court of law would agree.

Your impressions as a user and your user-biased test are NOT proof. Do a proper study. The burden is on you!


That sounds like very bad science to me I'm afraid..

"the answer is this, beacause the laws of physics say so"...

I could say the same, and claim that the burden of proof is on you. And that you are the one in conflict with the laws of physics. Your statements so far are just that, statements, unfounded and un-documented, you have yet to link to any peer-reviewd reports.

You may try to gain respect by claiming and pointing out that you are a scientist, but do not try to claim that you adhere to rigid scientific rules, and do not have burden of proof, when you in reality have yet to offer any of the science that you claim support your views

Stating "scientists have shown" or "the laws of physics regulate" etc are known "weasel words" phrases.

Everyone can claim that science is on their side. Showing that it is is hence the key to "proving" anything.





Nov 11, 2008 at 11:47 AM
Marc Kurth
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p.3 #20 · FX vs. DX throwdown...


Aside from the theories and laws of physics, I know one thing to be irrefutably true when arguing DX, FX and MF film: I can produce lousy images with all of them – with equal ease and surprising little effort.

There are no "facts" that will change my mind on this important topic.



Nov 11, 2008 at 12:54 PM
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