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Archive 2008 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

skibum5
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p.171 #1 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

>Hmmm. The 40D was announced on August 20, 2007 and scheduled for delivery >early that September. So are you saying it was delivered before it was >announced?
>
> ;http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20070820_40d.html

apparently I am.

no, but i recall there was some sort of talk by someone from canon about some date and then it ended up being a month sooner.
but perhaps i am comparing different types of statements.
or maybe they quickly revised that date and then changed it again. i forget, but there was something about it arriving a bit earlier than one of the suggeted release dates.

>Sit on?"
>Having worked in a company that put out regularly updated applications, I don't >believe for a moment Canon "sat on" the 5D. They may have determined that the >best way to make money was to set that model on a 36-month project cycle, but i>f you're saying they produced a camera and then "sat on" it, you'd have to show >some real evidence (like a company memo).

whne someone asked them about it many, many months agao they said they didn't see any need for any new 5D and doing new thigns with FF and were fine with the 5D since they had no competition in site and were far ahead of everyone so why bother doign anything and they said if anyone actually gave us a threat then we can respond and then when the D3 suddenly came out and the earliest rumours about the D700 began drifting about they said something to the effect off oops maybe we did get a bit complacent and they didn't sound quite as arrogant in their position anymore

>They may have rather had the camera ready at the same time as the 50D--I don't >doubt someone at Canon said that. But I doubt he said they "sat on" it.

instead of being so incr3dibly reactive they could've kept being the leader

anwyay, whatever

Nov 15, 2008 at 10:42 PM

miccullen
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p.171 #2 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

skibum5 wrote:
but technically it is not late per the "by the end of novemeber statement" if that is what you go by

Well, what else is there to go by? It's either believe Canon, or the "my hunch is it will be by the end of this week based on exactly nothing" crowd.

Nov 15, 2008 at 10:53 PM

miccullen
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p.171 #3 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

dan221081 wrote:
Even though I am number 40 on one of the pre-order lists, I'm still not likely to get one until the end of January. It makes me angry that every shop that I have spoken to has gone for the pre-order list system, meaning that all the cameras are sold already to the hardcore fanatics. Meanwhile everyone else gets told to sod off and wait.

But nobody has a better solution, it appears.

Nov 15, 2008 at 11:00 PM

RDKirk
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p.171 #4 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

Exactly , but as a photographer your in a different line of work to a camera shop. A shop is there to offer business to the local area otherwise it might as well fire the sales guy and rent out a business unit and sell its products purely through a website.

Where would there be a difference? I'm a businessperson selling a product to whoever wants to do business with me--so is the camera dealer. I cannot contemplate how you figure any businessperson should turn away someone who walked through the door to purchase something in favor of nobody...because he doesn't know whether anyone local is going to buy, unless they've already made some kind of arrangement.

And even if he would, it's unrealistic to expect him to hold a product for you if you've never told him you wanted to buy one. It's even selfish--he has expenses to meet as much as anyone else.

Nov 16, 2008 at 12:56 AM

Mel Gross
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p.171 #5 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

burychka wrote:
It's for her--she always gets the best, newest stuff. I'll get her 40D to replace my aging 20D (which was hers until she got the 40D, and on which the odometer is on its sixth time around). She'll use the 5D2 almost exclusively, although as now, when we shoot grandbabies in our home studio, she'll direct and I'll be the monkey pushing the button. In the field, she'll probably take the 40D when she needs the 1.6 crop factor for a distant yellow-crowned night heron (since that will still be a larger image than cropping a 5D2 image).

There was never...Show more →

You mustn't be married too long.

Nov 16, 2008 at 02:11 AM

Mel Gross
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p.171 #6 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

burychka wrote:
Yes. I would be quite annoyed...at myself for not considering the possibility that my shop might sell out. It happens to stage shows and video games and fancy cell phones all the time.

The other consideration for me is that I am glad people are coming from other small towns and helping my local dealer to thrive. Above all, I need local camera stores. At least two. And my small town metro area of 3 million people is down to exactly two camera stores (not counting Ritz and Wolf). I wouldn't expect them to hold camera bodies just in case a...Show more →

Sadly enough, it's thought by some that the small camera stores won't be pulling through this economic difficulty in large numbers.

Nov 16, 2008 at 02:14 AM

Mel Gross
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p.171 #7 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

dan221081 wrote:
I guess thats the difference between the US market and the UK one. In the UK if there is a shop down the road its primarily there to service that area and as a secondary objective service other areas. Otherwise whats the point in it being in that location. As a result small shops in the UK are more likely to be loyal to their local customers first. In the US going on what your saying it looks like its quite different.

You're saying that a "local" shop their would be allowed to discriminate between customers? That would be allowed here.

Nov 16, 2008 at 02:15 AM

Mel Gross
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p.171 #8 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

skibum5 wrote:
>Hmmm. The 40D was announced on August 20, 2007 and scheduled for delivery >early that September. So are you saying it was delivered before it was >announced?
>
> ;http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20070820_40d.html

apparently I am.

Nov 16, 2008 at 02:22 AM

philber
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p.171 #9 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

I am familiar with the electronics industry from the inside. It is unusual in one key area: costs and prices keep falling. Each new generation of chips delivers more for less, or much more for the same money, than the previous one.
So replacing an aging product does not follow the same economics as, say, in the car industry. For example in the 5D2 there is a new LCD with 900.000+ pixels, Vs the smaller LCD in the 5D. Because of the 3-year difference and the way 3" LCD prices fell during those 3 years, Canon is paying significantly less for the new, better one, than for the old one.
The other issue that drives product replacement is the availability of parts. When 5D was designed, Canon expected to make "so many" of them over its lifecycle, and tooled up (and its subcontractors) accordingly. If either volume or life cycle extend beyond what was planned, and tools need to be replaced, then all bets are off, cost-wise. Because it could easily be that they just cannot be duplicated simply because the manufacturing process has been improved since, and the old one is no longer supported. One example of that would be memory for the buffer. The 5D has memory with 3-year old performance (clock speed, density). The odds are it is no longer produced. And you cannot simplistically "just" replace it with a faster, more dense memory on the assumption that the better chip can do everything the lesser chip can, it doesn't work that way. And even if it did, you would have to test the change extensively, and document it throughout the service chain all over the world with parts lists, AVLs, blueprints etc. Not cheap at all, and eating right into the promised land of extra profits from larger-than-expected volumes
These are just 2 examples of why extending a product's lifecycle is not the "easy", lazy decision that it seems to be. Beyond a few months of tweaking, it needs a total rethink of the game plan.
So when you keep in mind that the 5D is 3 years old, and how few consumer products from the electronics industry (cell phones, computers, TV sets...) actually last more than even one year on dealer shelves before being replaced by a later, newer, spiffier model, you get an idea of how much of a relief it must have been for Canon to move on from 5D on the manufacturing and cost sides.

Nov 16, 2008 at 02:43 AM

skibum5
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p.171 #10 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

miccullen wrote:
Well, what else is there to go by? It's either believe Canon, or the "my hunch is it will be by the end of this week based on exactly nothing" crowd.

what i meant it some people were just considering the whole cam to be somewhat late in coming, os if you by that they you can call it late already

if you go by the by late november then no it is not late yet

Nov 16, 2008 at 03:10 AM

dan221081
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p.171 #11 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

Mel Gross wrote:
You're saying that a "local" shop their would be allowed to discriminate between customers? That would be allowed here.

Sorry your not quite understanding what I am getting at here. Not all shops have websites , not all shops sell over mail order , some are just shops purely there to sell to the local community. Perhaps because in the US the scale is somewhat larger and distances are greater you might have a different setup but in the UK thats how it is. You also have your internet based companies that sell all over the world and you have your half way solutions that do both.

What I was getting at was that if shop A (shop A being purely a shop / does not have a website / does not normally do mail order) gets in say 5 units because the shop owner knows that roughly within the next 3 months he has enough customers that they will be sold. He knows that quite a few people have been asking about them and chances are they will come into the shop and buy a camera. It doesn't matter where they live or have come from he just knows that they will come through the door and will buy it, in person.

However come release day several of the potential customers who know the shop well come along to have a look at one of the sparkley new units to find that uh-oh someone rang up the previous week before they were even released and has bought them all.

Potential customer = Very Angry

Regardless of what I believe, I know this is why some Shops / Companies in the UK (I wont name them now) refuse to do the pre-ordering. Its a bit like jumping the queue and to me seems slightly rude. Sadly it is typical of the "must have it now" attitude that is becoming so popular in todays society.

I hope that clarifies the point I was trying to make

Nov 16, 2008 at 06:01 AM

john_edwards
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p.171 #12 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

You know, if you had never visited a photography forum or read any photo magazines or talked with other photogs I could see that the 5D2 announcement could come as a surprise. Otherwise, everyone and their brother knew that Canon, at some point was going to announce a new 5D. If you had any inkling at all that you would want one of these cameras you would have spoken with your local camera store and asked them to hold one for you if one is announced. A large (think B&H) store would have said we are not taking pre-orders at this time, but your local guy, whom you see on a semi regular basis, would have said: "Sure, I'll hold one for you".

So if you are not one of the "Oh my God, I've got to get it first" crowd, relax, its your own fault you are not getting one the end of November or in December.

Thank you for allowing me to whine to the whiners, and no I don't have one on order I just saved $5500 on a almost new 1DsII.

John

Nov 16, 2008 at 10:13 AM

RDKirk
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p.171 #13 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

am familiar with the electronics industry from the inside. It is unusual in one key area: costs and prices keep falling. Each new generation of chips delivers more for less, or much more for the same money, than the previous one.

Canon has said this is exactly so. They have said that improvements in component capabilities and manufacturing/assembly process efficiencies make each succeeding model cheaper to produce. Even if they did not increase the features and performance of the camera at all, the cost of producing the newer model would be less than to continue to produce the older model.

Nov 16, 2008 at 11:01 AM

RDKirk
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p.171 #14 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

Sorry your not quite understanding what I am getting at here. Not all shops have websites , not all shops sell over mail order , some are just shops purely there to sell to the local community. Perhaps because in the US the scale is somewhat larger and distances are greater you might have a different setup but in the UK thats how it is. You also have your internet based companies that sell all over the world and you have your half way solutions that do both.

Internet and mail order are not relevant to this debate. We're talking about customers walking through the front door of a brick-and-mortar camera shop (or book shop, or automobile dealer, or any other retailer).

What I was getting at was that if shop A (shop A being purely a shop / does not have a website / does not normally do mail order) gets in say 5 units because the shop owner knows that roughly within the next 3 months he has enough customers that they will be sold. He knows that quite a few people have been asking about them and chances are they will come into the shop and buy a camera. It doesn't matter where they live or have come from he just knows that they will come through the door and...Show more →

He predicts he can sell five units in the next three months. But three months is too long--no small business owner is going to purchase major stock with the intention of leaving it on his shelves for three months. He's going to predict what he can sell in the next thirty days and do his wholesale purchases accordingly. If he predicts he can sell one camera a month, he's going to order one camera a month.

However come release day several of the potential customers who know the shop well come along to have a look at one of the sparkley new units to find that uh-oh someone rang up the previous week before they were even released and has bought them all.

Potential customer = Very Angry

We're not talking about pre-ordering, we're talking about customers walking through the door, pointing at a camera on the shelf, and saying, "I'd like to purchase one of those." You're saying the dealer should say, "No, you live in the next town, so I'm not going to sell that camera to you. I think someone who lives here locally might someday walk in and want one."

At least that's what it sounds like you're saying, because you said this:

Ok imagine this hypothetical scenario, your local store has a shipment of say 10 5Dmk2s come in. Your away on a business trip and know roughly that in your small town there really is very little chance that people are going to be in a position before Christmas to be able to buy them and as you are out of the country you put off ringing up the shop. Besides the camera does not even come out for a few weeks yet.

You come back from your business trip to find that infact the local camera shop down the road even though...Show more →

I think expecting a small business owner to say "No" to a real customer in favor of a "vapor" customer is incredible.

Nov 16, 2008 at 11:16 AM

Lithian
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p.171 #15 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

Sorry to break up the fun but i think dan is pulling your leg

The concept of a local shop for local people is from one of the weirder sketches from a bbc show called the league of gentlemen.

I find it funny that someone described the concept as utopian... as you will see from these two clips its anything but

WARNING! Its a bit odd

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Needless to say i avoid local shops for local people and buy most of my kit online

Nov 16, 2008 at 01:15 PM

miccullen
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p.171 #16 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

RDKirk wrote:
I think expecting a small business owner to say "No" to a real customer in favor of a "vapor" customer is incredible.

+1

Nov 16, 2008 at 01:39 PM

jbfaulconer
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p.171 #17 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

Canon CPS rep just emailed me saying she was going to be in town this Friday for the launch of the 5D. They will be giving seminars throughout the day on the 5D Mark II. Sounds like good news for some who have pre-ordered.

Nov 16, 2008 at 01:48 PM

Chris Tylko
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p.171 #18 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

Well I knew I was going to be on a plane the morning of the announcement so I called my regular camera store on September 16th, the day before (they know me, both my business partner and I have bought $000's from them) ...and I told the fellow "Tomorrow morning Canon will officially announce the successor to the 5D and I want two of them". To which he replied: "Well then, I guess we'll start the pre-order list with you".

So I've got positions 1 and 2 on the list.

Nov 16, 2008 at 01:50 PM

RDKirk
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p.171 #19 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

Sorry to break up the fun but i think dan is pulling your leg The concept of a local shop for local people is from one of the weirder sketches from a bbc show called the league of gentlemen. I find it funny that someone described the concept as utopian... as you will see from these two clips its anything but

HIGH-Larious!

Okay, my leg is pulled out to there.

"You're not from around here, are you? We are a local shop, and these are local things!"

Nov 16, 2008 at 03:27 PM

Mel Gross
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p.171 #20 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

dan221081 wrote:
Sorry your not quite understanding what I am getting at here. Not all shops have websites , not all shops sell over mail order , some are just shops purely there to sell to the local community. Perhaps because in the US the scale is somewhat larger and distances are greater you might have a different setup but in the UK thats how it is. You also have your internet based companies that sell all over the world and you have your half way solutions that do both.

What I was getting at was that if shop A (shop A...Show more →

Well yes. That's different from what you said the first time.

Nov 16, 2008 at 03:55 PM

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