Emile Gregoire wrote:
True, but that alone doesn't make it all valid.
It is for instance probably more efficient to produce tomatoes in the Philippines and import the few percent that get converted into paste back. This doesn't turn any country into a third-world country. Oversimplification is fun but hardly useful. Then again, I didn't follow an economics class in a third-world country; never got any further than a bachelors and masters in it at a reputable university.
I agree that consumerism without production makes for headaches. However, production doesn't have to mean manufacturing only. Services (and there are way better paid services than being cashier at Wal-mart, which we'll be hearing next) have transformed quite a few countries. Name a few you say? Well, the Nordics come to mind, Luxemburg, Ireland, heck: India even counts.
You can't really blame business from seeking better value and more efficiency. In fact you could consider it a compliment that it's cheaper to produce in China than in the US. Or would you rather have wages in the US that can compete? It would solve the "consumer economy" problem though...
Plus there are definite advantages to an interconnect world. Having tight economic links with a lot of countries reduces the risk of war for instance. It's one of the founding principles of the EU and heck - we haven't had war on our turf since its conception.
Anyway, when will you be buying your Japanese produced 5D II?...Show more →
It does to a great extent. The reason is that while tomatoshave low value, paste has high value.
That' the difference between producers of industrial goods, and agricultural countries.
Even Venezuela is having this problem now. due to the destruction to the oil industry caused by Chavez, and the deterioration of it's processing plants, they import so much high priced gas and oil back into the country, that the profits are disappearing. That's giving them the equivalent scenario to an undeveloped country.
I think that if we look at developed and undeveloped countries, we will see the difference right away.
The US now, due to the new recession, and the long time moving of manufacturing to China, has the same amount of manufacturing as it did in 1942. That was announced couple of days ago.
In the long run, most of this will straighten out, but it will take time.
Well, I've been screwed by Vistek just the same. 2 weeks ago I called and asked if I can prepay for the whole camera to make sure I get the current price. They didn't want to take my money and assured that the price won't go up.
A week later price DID go up!!
I find their actions completely unprofessional and really tempted to just cancel the order. Even though it may bump me to the bottom of the list from the other company, at least I won't have to deal with them again. We'll see if they'll try to make it up for it...Then I might give them a chance.
Same goes to Canon. They could have just give us a chance to purchase and prepay at the old price for those who already ordered. I am sure they've seen it coming!!! Again, it was very unprofessional from their part as well.
The handgun issue doesn't have much to do with the economy, however this second issue you mention is extremely significant--it's at the base of the problems of the US economy--and it's gotten little real notice.
Ironically, perhaps, McCain is on records as saying that the export of production capacity is not a problem (his suggestion was just to train workers to take "better jobs"), while Obama listed it as a major problem to be addressed.
I took an economics class at the University of the Philippines in the mid-80s, where at one point the professor noted: "The Philippines will always be a third world country because we export tomatoes and import tomato paste." He was right, and I've been watching that exact thing happening to the US since 1989.
Notice, this isn't something confined to one party or the other--both parties and our top financial interests have been exporting production capacity to China as rapidly as possible--touting the incredibly stupid concept of "the US is a consumer economy." That's the most imbecilic thing I've ever heard. A "consumer economy" is like a household where nobody has a job and everyone goes to the mall. ...Show more →
I agree with you fully, but I don't think Obama saying loss of manufacturing is "a major problem to be addressed" helps much either. I'm afraid that Obama's solution to not being able to support and upgrade our military hardware, is to just not have any more wars. Good luck on that one.
I mentioned the handgun issue, because it is a pet project of the left (including the U.N.) to disarm American citizens, and because it has already happened in Canada.
As long as our country is controlled by liberals and corporate CEO's making $20 million per year by exporting jobs, and then buying congressmen and senators, we're going to increasingly lose our ability to defend our nation or have an economy. We will be "exporting tomatos and importing tomato paste." Actually, we import tomatos AND tomato paste, come to think of it. Oh, #&@%!
I'm afraid we may be a consumer economy. Look at the last ten years. People bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages way beyond any hope of repayment. They bought everything in the mall with the credit cards offered them at the rate of two or three per week, and then making minimum payments or no payments. Americans were buying everything in sight with money they didn't have. Now the government says we have to help them keep their homes and they're even proposing to require foregiveness of credit card debt by the banks that we're also supporting with our tax dollars.
Guess what, my friend? We are a consumer economy. But like that family with no job going to the mall, eventually that comes to a painful end--and that is precisely what is happening now. No credit, no retail sales.
Meantime, 48% of income tax returns qualify for the Earned Income Credit. 48%. That's getting dangerously close to the point where welfare recipients could determine the outcome of elections. Legalizing 20 million illegals could just put it over the 50% mark. And, as you know, that is when a Democracy comes to an end. We are the new third world.
How's that for grim? Let's get back on topic. What are those invisible AF assist points, anyway?
Mel Gross wrote:
It does to a great extent. The reason is that while tomatoshave low value, paste has high value.
That' the difference between producers of industrial goods, and agricultural countries.
Even Venezuela is having this problem now. due to the destruction to the oil industry caused by Chavez, and the deterioration of it's processing plants, they import so much high priced gas and oil back into the country, that the profits are disappearing. That's giving them the equivalent scenario to an undeveloped country.
I think that if we look at developed and undeveloped countries, we will see the difference right away.
The US now, due to the new recession, and the long time moving of manufacturing to China, has the same amount of manufacturing as it did in 1942. That was announced couple of days ago.
In the long run, most of this will straighten out, but it will take time. ...Show more →
But your point, which is valid, was that we won WWII on the stength of our manufacturing might. That would mean that the US went from a pitiful level of manufacturing capability in 1942 to a manufacturing colossus the likes of which the Earth has never seen in less than 3 years. So why couldn't we do that today if the need arises?
Dear Canon,
Please ship me my 5DMarkII pre-order soon. I can't take this thread any longer, and would like to read some discussions about actual cameras. If not my pre-order, then please ship to someone, just so we can have real discussions.
For the third time, read my posts!
From a conversation with the Consumer Protection Agency in Ontario - Henry's has fully complied with the regulations for consumer protection.
Like I said, it's a house game, and we're not the house.
Jeremy Reitman wrote:
Dear Canon,
Please ship me my 5DMarkII pre-order soon. I can't take this thread any longer, and would like to read some discussions about actual cameras. If not my pre-order, then please ship to someone, just so we can have real discussions.
Thank you,
Jeremy
OK, Jeremy. However, from the start, this thread did not claim to be about 5D2 technical matters.
But your point, which is valid, was that we won WWII on the stength of our manufacturing might. That would mean that the US went from a pitiful level of manufacturing capability in 1942 to a manufacturing colossus the likes of which the Earth has never seen in less than 3 years. So why couldn't we do that today if the need arises?
Remember what Mark Twain said about lies. There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Yes, we have the same manufacturing capacity as in 1942, but with six times the population and a significantly more industrialized society. How many households had two automobiles in 1942? How many had one? My parents in Philadelphia did not have a car. Or an air conditioner. Or a TV (OK there were none then). Heck, they didn't even have a computer!
So we're five times more mechanized than in 1942 with one-sixth the manufacturing capacity per citizen. I think that works out to 1/30th the capacity per citizen. That would be a lot of ramping up necessary for war. With insufficient capacity to build machines--tanks, howitzers, tankers--our only solution to win a war would be to nuke 'em. Some statistic, eh?
burychka wrote:
Remember what Mark Twain said about lies. There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Yes, we have the same manufacturing capacity as in 1942, but with six times the population and a significantly more industrialized society. How many households had two automobiles in 1942? How many had one? My parents in Philadelphia did not have a car. Or an air conditioner. Or a TV (OK there were none then). Heck, they didn't even have a computer!
So we're five times more mechanized than in 1942 with one-sixth the manufacturing capacity per citizen. I think that works out to 1/30th the capacity per citizen. That would be a lot of ramping up necessary for war. With insufficient capacity to build machines--tanks, howitzers, tankers--our only solution to win a war would be to nuke 'em. Some statistic, eh?...Show more →
And oh yes, I forgot. Henry Ford, Henry J. Kaiser, and Kelly Johnson are dead.
Jeremy Reitman wrote:
I'm sure that's the case, but I'm sure noone thought handguns and Barak Obama would be a point of discussion in the thread either.
So I ask now for the third time...what are those invisible AF assist points?
Jeremy Reitman wrote:
Dear Canon,
Please ship me my 5DMarkII pre-order soon. I can't take this thread any longer, and would like to read some discussions about actual cameras. If not my pre-order, then please ship to someone, just so we can have real discussions.
Thank you,
Jeremy
Thank you for posting. If people want to debate politics there are plenty of other places. Let's focus on the 5DMK2 and not peripheral issues.
I agree with you fully, but I don't think Obama saying loss of manufacturing is "a major problem to be addressed" helps much either. I'm afraid that Obama's solution to not being able to support and upgrade our military hardware, is to just not have any more wars. Good luck on that one.
I mentioned the handgun issue, because it is a pet project of the left (including the U.N.) to disarm American citizens, and because it has already happened in Canada.
As long as our country is controlled by liberals and corporate CEO's making $20 million per year by exporting jobs, and then buying congressmen and senators, we're going to increasingly lose our ability to defend our nation or have an economy. We will be "exporting tomatos and importing tomato paste." Actually, we import tomatos AND tomato paste, come to think of it. Oh, #&@%!
I'm afraid we may be a consumer economy. Look at the last ten years. People bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages way beyond any hope of repayment. They bought everything in the mall with the credit cards offered them at the rate of two or three per week, and then making minimum payments or no payments. Americans were buying everything in sight with money they didn't have. Now the government says we have to help them keep their homes and they're even proposing to require foregiveness of credit card debt by the banks that we're also supporting with our tax dollars.
Guess what, my friend? We are a consumer economy. But like that family with no job going to the mall, eventually that comes to a painful end--and that is precisely what is happening now. No credit, no retail sales.
Meantime, 48% of income tax returns qualify for the Earned Income Credit. 48%. That's getting dangerously close to the point where welfare recipients could determine the outcome of elections. Legalizing 20 million illegals could just put it over the 50% mark. And, as you know, that is when a Democracy comes to an end. We are the new third world.
How's that for grim? Let's get back on topic. What are those invisible AF assist points, anyway?...Show more →
I have no problem with the country being runby liberals.
After having voted for Nixon twice, Reagan twice, and Bush senior once, I've come to the conclusion that as the Republican Party has gone down the road of the right wing religious, this country has just gotten worse.
It's become clear that conservatives can't govern.
Sad, the Republican Party is no longer the party it was.
HoustonCuse wrote:
But your point, which is valid, was that we won WWII on the stength of our manufacturing might. That would mean that the US went from a pitiful level of manufacturing capability in 1942 to a manufacturing colossus the likes of which the Earth has never seen in less than 3 years. So why couldn't we do that today if the need arises?
The US went from what was, in 1942, an amazing level of manufacturing, back to that level, in the amount of goods manufactured, which for TODAY, is not too good. There was about 142 million Americans here back then. Now, including undocumented individuals, it's in excess of 315 million. We need more than twice as much to be at the level per individual we were at back then.
But, I believe that this will change over time. Things are already moving in a direction that will change from what we see now into a more level playing field in the future.
jerrykur wrote:
Thank you for posting. If people want to debate politics there are plenty of other places. Let's focus on the 5DMK2 and not peripheral issues.
If we did that, there wouldn't be much to talk about now.
All we are getting otherwise is complaints about the price.
That's much more boring, and purposeless.
At least we can have fun discussing some economic reasons for it.
So what's the relevance or moral of the story? That Americans are broke and only a few people can really afford to buy the 5D Mk II .... and therefore the price will tank in a matter of weeks?
burychka wrote:
I agree with you fully, but I don't think Obama saying loss of manufacturing is "a major problem to be addressed" helps much either. I'm afraid that Obama's solution to not being able to support and upgrade our military hardware, is to just not have any more wars. Good luck on that one.
I mentioned the handgun issue, because it is a pet project of the left (including the U.N.) to disarm American citizens, and because it has already happened in Canada.
As long as our country is controlled by liberals and corporate CEO's making $20 million per year by exporting jobs, and then buying congressmen and senators, we're going to increasingly lose our ability to defend our nation or have an economy. We will be "exporting tomatos and importing tomato paste." Actually, we import tomatos AND tomato paste, come to think of it. Oh, #&@%!
I'm afraid we may be a consumer economy. Look at the last ten years. People bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages way beyond any hope of repayment. They bought everything in the mall with the credit cards offered them at the rate of two or three per week, and then making minimum payments or no payments. Americans were buying everything in sight with money they didn't have. Now the government says we have to help them keep their homes and they're even proposing to require foregiveness of credit card debt by the banks that we're also supporting with our tax dollars.
Guess what, my friend? We are a consumer economy. But like that family with no job going to the mall, eventually that comes to a painful end--and that is precisely what is happening now. No credit, no retail sales.
Meantime, 48% of income tax returns qualify for the Earned Income Credit. 48%. That's getting dangerously close to the point where welfare recipients could determine the outcome of elections. Legalizing 20 million illegals could just put it over the 50% mark. And, as you know, that is when a Democracy comes to an end. We are the new third world.
How's that for grim? Let's get back on topic. What are those invisible AF assist points, anyway?...Show more →
