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Archive 2008 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread

  
 
toonhorse
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p.58 #1 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Jim Victory wrote:
Well if your willing to believe DPR then by all means don't buy the 50D. I have found it to be a good improvement over the 40D and my lenses are not having any problems with the extra MP.

In fact that was the most attractive aspect of the 50D for me because I find myself cropping quite often. Now I can crop 5MP from the 50D file and Have a 10MP file vs a 5MP when using the 40D. I use it exclusively for wildlife and birds where my 500 or 600 sometimes is just not enough reach so
...Show more

It's not that I'm a DPR evangelist, but I do like to research extensively before I purchase. In theory the 50D would fit me perfectly. I like wildlife photography and macro so reach is essential and I do crop when needed. One other thing is that I don't have L glass and I wonder if my current EF-S lens lineup will be a limiting factor. 17-85 IS, 10-22, and an old but reliable 70-210 f4 lens. Anyway, I'll be lurking and researching. Thanks for sharing your experience Jim and everyone else who has used the 50D so far. I appreciate the discussion.



Oct 31, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Ulan
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p.58 #2 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Well, I'm using Photoshop Elements 6 and I downloaded the ACR 5.1 module to my satisfaction.


Oct 31, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Ulan
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p.58 #3 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Well, I don't know what to say about the pixel issue. I only thought that more pixels would allow better cropping and good A3 or A2 prints. Of course, it's pretty easy to understand that the best lenses are requested to exploit the high pixel density. I'm using AFS 17-55 IS, 70-200 L IS, 100-400 L IS, Sigma 50-150 2.8, Sigma 105 macro, and I expect the best of the 50D. So the DP Review test comes to me as a shock. Well, paying 1150 euros and get a gear somewhat inferior relating to IQ than the cheaper 40D is quite of a disappointment (I also have a 30D, quite a good gear).

The truth is that I experienced a kind of Err99 on the first day, and I thought it was a mistake of mine. But I never got the 'rare' phenomenon again. I also noticed an unusually higher than expected percentage of partly (but badly and irreversably)washed out pictures, something I didn't experience with my 30D (am I too used to this gear ?). White balance is not satisfiying in tungsten lighting (too yellow), flesh colour is kind of reddish in daylight, I also have to correct manually for flash. Fortunately I managed to get ACR 5.1 module for PhotoshopElements 5.1, which I find better than DPP (I shoot in RAW, unfortunately PE has no good lens distortion correction, and DXO is not updated yet). All of this can (could) be solved by a good firmware.

Regarding noise, I have my doubts. I think that above 1600 ISO, pictures are not that great.

Auto Lighting Optimizer is of little help.

Otherwise the LCD screen is wonderful, AF micro-adjustment enabled me to correct the Sigma 50-150 that ended front focusing (the 15 MP of the 50D enabled me to notice the phenomenon). Menu is super friendly. Quality build is better than 30D, though the gear could have been fully tropicalised. Flash control is better, but why can't it be used as a master ? AF is reactive, but I didn't use the AI Servo yet. Shutter is silent. Viewfinder hasn't change that much as compared to 30D. HDMI is there (though you have to buy the wire), but with a CF I could get show the pics with a reader such as PS3. Live View is quite impressive, but it is battery consuming (and by the way, the battery autonomy is quite reduced compared to 30D, even when Live View is switched off). Anti-dust system is great, I love it (dust was a big problem when I shot in environments such as coastal or andean Peru).




Oct 31, 2008 at 11:55 AM
RAMcG
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p.58 #4 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


I traded up from a 20D to a 50D. These quotes from the DPR review really irk me the most:

"Switching to our benchmark RAW converter, Adobe Camera RAW equalizes image processing between the two cameras and allows us to get a much better idea of the level of detail actually captured. As you can see both cameras images look crisper and exhibit better detail but the 40D stills beats the newer model in terms of per pixel detail. Despite of a 22% increase in vertical and horizontal resolution the extra detail captured by the 50D is marginal."

"We're by no means saying the 50Ds image quality is bad but it's simply not significantly better than the ten megapixel 40D. In some areas such as dynamic range and high ISO performance it's actually worse and that simply makes you wonder if the EOS 50D could have been an (even) better camera if its sensor had a slightly more moderate resolution."

How on earth could Canon release a "new" camera that had worse per pixel sharpness, less dynamic range and worse high ISO performance? And why oh why did I not wait. I bought the first day it hit the shelves, and I never do that. When I was in the market for my first DSLR, I did a ton of research, I was prepared to buy the Minolta, and then DPR came out with its review, and that sold me.

After about four weeks of playing, the following is my bottom line so far on image quality. These are my comments on image quality alone. I'm not including other things like camera usability, user interface and ergonomics (in which the 50D kills the 20D).

At low ISOs, I see a vast improvement over my 20D. The focus speed and accuracy are both markedly improved, meaning a much higher keeper rate, allowing me to be even more discriminating about what is acceptable. The larger number of pixels means far more flexibility in cropping. That, combined with the better, more accurate focusing, really gives it a leg up as an outdoor sports camera. The metering and WB are markedly improved, meaning far less "playing" in post processing. The files just look more polished and "done" right out of the camera, if you know what I mean. In short, outdoors, in good light, the 50D is just in a different class than the 20D--it is clearly newer, more mature technology. I don't have the 40D and I've never shot with it so I can't judge the 50D vs the 40D.

That's the good. The bad is the high ISO shooting, though my comments are based on only one outing so far. I shot a hockey scrimmage last weekend. This was at my "home rink" so I know the lighting in there very well, having probably shot over 100 hockey games in there with my 20D. So, I dialed in the numbers I usually would -- ISO 1600, F2.8 and SS of 1/400 (probably a bit too fast on the shutter). That wasn't working. So, I dropped the shutter to 1/320, which would be the normal SS in that rink. That didn't work, either. So, I jacked up the ISO, first to 2000, then to 2500 and finally to 3200. (Boy, I sure do hope that they just changed the lighting in there somehow since last season.) On my wonderful screen, the shots looked nice and sharp and I was looking forward to getting them home and seeing them in full. Let's just say I'm disappointed. The shots are still in focus. But, it's just hard to tell as all the detail in the kids' faces are just pretty much gone, obscured by a noisy and sadly colorful fuzz. I know I've got to do some additional experimenting, but my early returns are very disappointing. I've got another hockey game tomorrow. I plan to bring both the 50D and 20D and shoot back to back--within moments of each other, just taking long enough to transfer the lens and CF card from camera to camera.

For my general photography needs (travel, family snaps, stock), this camera is better than the 20D, particularly in good light (though the per-pixel sharpness issues irk me). For outdoor sports, there is no contest, the 50D blows away the 20D--absolutely crushes it. For my third use of this camera (and my primary use of it from late October through mid March of each year), hockey, so far I'm not impressed at all. At this point, I can't say that it is any better than my 20D for useable images and in fact may well be worse. If tomorrow's head-to-head test between the 20D and the 50D doesn't got well, I'll be pissed.

Sorry for the rant, but I feel better, now.



Oct 31, 2008 at 07:25 PM
stanman
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p.58 #5 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Can someone give me an idea of how the high ISO image quality is when following this workflow?

DPP > CS2 TIFF > NN (noise ninja) > capture sharpening

That has always been my standard workflow with the 30D, so I would have no problems not using ACR or with in-camera jpegs.



Oct 31, 2008 at 07:46 PM
skibum5
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p.58 #6 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


RAW DPP results,same scene, same lens, same lighting, same f/stop, same shutter speed, same ISO (3200):

20D definitely brightest, probably at least 1/3 stop over 40D the darkest, 50D splits the difference although probably a little closer to 20D than to 40D.
nothing was adjusted in regards to this.

per pixel:
no doubt 50D has the worst noise of the 3 by clear margin then the 40D then 20D best.
50D chroma noise particularly gruesome.

per image (50D and 40D scaled down to 20D res):
luminance noise is quite close but it seems like
40D beats 50D by a hair beats 20D by a hair (note this might change if I og back and EC up the 40D to the 50D or 20D, etc.)

chroma noise:
40D beats 20D beats 50D
I really think the 50D does give up as much as a 1/3 of stop of chroma noise vs. the 40D at ISO3200.

verdict (warning though different exposures not taken into account and 40D does deliver darkest images so once that is accounted for it might change the results a bit):

40D is the per image noise champion and i'm calling the 50D and 20D close with 50D seeming to have a tad less luma noise but a tad more chroma blotching; but none of this is quite different enough to really base purchasing decisions on. Of course then must realize you are wasting space bothering with the large files just to downsize with the 50D to get back to the old noise levels (and still not quite in chroma) although going to 7MP the sraw seems to work well and it might have best per image at the 7MP level, haven’t really done a test yet though.

20D is the per pixel champ followed by 40D and the 50D brings up the rear by far, if you were counting on using the 15MP and keeping same noise forget it, if good high iso matters, count on resizing it down to 7-10MP and loosing all MP advantage just to break even while dealing with larger files and a tad more chroma noise at that and this is if using DPP, if using ACR high iso is imply worse unless you resize to LESS total detail than the others. Since a peek at sraw makes it appears to do quite well, maybe dropping to it's 7MP is way to go for high iso shots where chasing last bit of detail is not prime point. I'm not sure, but it almost seems like sRAW makes 50D per image noise king at 7MP setting all around.

I tried 25 min of night soccer with it using jpgs and NR standard, AL opt low, and it looked good on the lcd but back on the computer it was bad, all the player faces look like clay and every shot looks like it has motion blur or bad focus but I think it was more the NR since the shutter speeds were same as the 40D I used there at the same time and peaking in raw it seemed sharper. Anyway for night sports, on really bad lighting, between a tad lower shutter speeds, more noise, etc. you just won’t deliver 15MP except on the very rare frame so might as well shoot sraw or immediately downsize to not waste space.

In the day the detail blew away the 20D and was somewhat better than the 40D too (noticeably, I need to test see exactly how much so, btu almost certainly moreso than DPR got, don’t know why their shots look so much blurrier than mine, even a few haphazard clicks with the same lens 50mm 1.4 and I got much sharper results than their careful studio shot, weird). You do get a bit more noise though at those 15MP but at ISO100 and 200 it's not too big of a deal and one would often prefer the 15MP detail and you could always scale down when you don't.

So: far more imae detail than a 20D at the price of dealing with uselessly large files at high iso. You get somewhat more detail than a 40D at the price of dealing with uselessly large files at high iso and still a tad of chroma nosie distraction. Don’t ever use jpg NR above low for night sports or ever shot will be a mush of a tosser unless you have solid lighting. Also seemed some uniforms clipped while darker parts darker than on 40D.

BUT! That is not the final conclusion sine someone suggests that a german test hints that DPP cheats a bit for the 50D in terms of hidden RAW NR, not sure if this is true. Anyway, if you like to use ACR then there is the issue that suddenly the 50D noise does worse compared to the 20D and 40D, not just per pixel, but per image, especially with chroma noise and even moreso almost at the lowest ISOs, it almost seems like it’s ¾ stop worse per image at low ISO and 1/3-1/2 stop worse at high iso per image using ACR. Don’t yet know which tells the truer tale of the actual sensor capabilities.

Using same scene, lighting, color temp, picture style in DPP, 40D and 50D produce different colors.

Tentative opinion from very little time spent with cam so far (been crazy busy) is that DPR messed up their resolution tests and didn’t call it fairly, but their noise tests are closer on line (if ACR is to be trusted more than DPP and who knows for sure at this point, this may not be fair either). It is amusing that they trash the 50D for losing detail from NR but when Nikon did that they simply praised it for low noise and only the ‘merest loss of detail’ so they do have some Nikon bias and have had for a long while.

Canon did more or less lie about the 1-1.5 stops better sensor.



Nov 01, 2008 at 01:53 AM
rsg_1
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p.58 #7 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Expect prices to fall significantly on the 50D down to maybe under a $1000 by early 2009.


Nov 01, 2008 at 11:45 AM
surfnron
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p.58 #8 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


I've been thinking about getting the 50D, but still have not made up my mind. I'm more interested in everyday performance than pixel level detail. So I've been looking at shots posted by people whose work I have seen before they upgraded. Some are outstanding, and some are almost scary. "Thang" is posting some outstanding work in the wildlife forum. I'm wondering how much of the less than stellar work is "operator error", and how much is the camera/firmware version. Of course, the glass plays a major roll too. And pp is also important.... Tough decision ~ Ron


Nov 01, 2008 at 01:37 PM
UCSB
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p.58 #9 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Surfnron ... I would not make up your mind about the 50D just yet. I have had mine for about 4 days and have done extensive testing on all of the DPreview points including noise, DR, pixel sharpness etc. and I am seeing a much more positive performance from the camera than all of these comments would lead you to believe. I would wait a week or so for the more technical and experienced photographers to respond to some of the points in the DPreview material and bring some perspective to the discussion. It is a little early to make this prediction, but I suspect the 50D review on DPreview will be revised in the future or some of their testing procedures will be changed going forward.

Some trends that I would expect to see:
1. Better understanding of the improved resolution capable with the 50D. (For example, DPreview testing at f/8 with 50 1.4 is less than ideal on a crop camera. Stepping back to f/5.6 would have probably lead to different conclusions).
2. DR results on DPreview seem questionable to me after running my own tests. At the very least, misleading for real world performance for people using RAW.
3. Noise ... I can get better RAW noise performance out the 50D than these early results would indicate.

One thing that I don't need to do any more testing on is the Micro Adjust on AF. This feature alone is worth the upgrade. Perhaps the 50D is going to be a camera that ends up asking more from the user in terms of technique and post processing. Software and the user knowledge may be items that will start to make a bigger difference going forward than they have in the past.


Edited on Nov 02, 2008 at 10:44 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2008 at 02:46 PM
Daan B
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p.58 #10 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


UCSB wrote:
Some trends that I would expect to see:
1. Better understanding of the improved resolution capable with the 50D. (For example, DPreview testing at f/8 with 50 1.4 is less than ideal on a crop camera. Stepping back to f/5.6 would have probably lead to different conclusions).
2. DR results on DPreview seem questionable to me after running my own tests. At the very least, misleading for real world performance for people using RAW.
3. Noise ... I can get better RAW noise performance out the 50D than these early results would indicate.


For a different view on the 50D, it may be worthwhile to check this page (and others from the same tests) as well:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E50D/E50DIMATEST.HTM

Scroll down for DR test results/comparisons



Nov 01, 2008 at 03:30 PM
UCSB
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p.58 #11 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Daan B wrote:
For a different view on the 50D, it may be worthwhile to check this page (and others from the same tests) as well:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E50D/E50DIMATEST.HTM

Scroll down for DR test results/comparisons


Thanks, these results are in line with what I was seeing in my tests.



Nov 01, 2008 at 06:59 PM
surfnron
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p.58 #12 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


UCSB, thanx for the response. I have not made up my mind yet. If you have not checked out the shots posted by Thang in wildlife, I suggest you do. He's really got the 50D working very well ~ Ron


Nov 01, 2008 at 08:13 PM
Jim Victory
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p.58 #13 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Evidently most online retailers are offering the 50D with $100 rebate. Don't know if this is Canon generated or not. Canoga Camera seems to have the best price at $1250 shipped.

Jim



Nov 01, 2008 at 11:46 PM
Dominic Soucy
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p.58 #14 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


I believe fw 1.0.3 have fixed quite a few problems of my 50d ... it now appears to understand light normally.

some more testing on the way.



Nov 02, 2008 at 03:12 AM
therock
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p.58 #15 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


surfnron wrote:
UCSB, thanx for the response. I have not made up my mind yet. If you have not checked out the shots posted by Thang in wildlife, I suggest you do. He's really got the 50D working very well ~ Ron


I looked at his exif and that body and glass are dialed in focus wise. I like how one can see the DOF in the water and near the cat. some are shot wide open too. I gotta get a 500 F4L somehow.



Nov 02, 2008 at 06:05 AM
jaetie
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p.58 #16 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


rsg_1 wrote:
Expect prices to fall significantly on the 50D down to maybe under a $1000 by early 2009.


that is VERY presumptuous.



Nov 02, 2008 at 10:57 AM
WmPat
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p.58 #17 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


Can anyone please provide a link to Canon's description of the high ISO performance of the 50D.


Nov 02, 2008 at 02:21 PM
brunobarolo
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p.58 #18 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


WmPat wrote:
Can anyone please provide a link to Canon's description of the high ISO performance of the 50D.


There is a statement of Canon's Chuck Westfall, over at Rob Galbraith's site:

Purchasers of the 50D, says Westfall, can expect noise levels to be roughly 1 to 1.5 stops better in the high ISO range. For example, this means that a photo shot at ISO 3200 on the 50D is expected to have similar noise characteristics to one shot in the ISO 1100-1600 range on the 40D.

You can find it here:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9314-9568

Sadly, this statement will not increase Mr. Westfalls credibility.



Nov 02, 2008 at 02:50 PM
BennyR
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p.58 #19 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


FWIW my early assessment of the 50D is in line with most of the rest of you, (UCSB, RAMcG, Jim Victory). Overall I do like the camera. Haven't tried the Micro adjustment yet. It does like the good glass.

It does make me want a 5D Mark II in addition to the 50D however.



Nov 02, 2008 at 04:36 PM
therock
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p.58 #20 · Canon EOS 50D Master thread


@BennyR,

Coming from a troubled 40D experience with focus issues across 6 lenses I have been getting really excited with the AF fine tuning. I just nailed my 300 F4L IS this evening and it feels great when you go out and shoot and the keeper rate sky rockets. I got my 70-200 F2.8L IS dialed in yesterday and loving it!

The body and glass was close enough that anything less than 100% would pass but I could tell at pixel level we needed work.

I shot charts, batteries, and billboards but what worked best in the end was just studying my random snap shots looking for what was in focus and where it was compared to the intended subject and noting the trend.

No more 10 to 14 day trips to Canon to get a note that it was in spec. I have my own spec now.

The AF fine tuning alone to me is a large plus for moving to the 50D. I now have a 50-1.4, 17-55-2.8, 28-135 and the 10-22 to dial in. Me thinks the 17-55 is spot on though.



Nov 02, 2008 at 05:46 PM
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