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Archive 2008 · G10

  
 
apdieb
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p.3 #1 · G10


It's on my notify list at B&H. They say it won't be available until September. That is coming soon.




Aug 27, 2008 at 09:02 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #2 · G10


apdieb wrote:
This is exactly why the LX3 is appealing to me. 24mm F2 Leica lens with optical IS, high ISO, manual controls, metal body, 10mpix, and supposedly cleaner noise. Regardless, a P&S is a P&S. I just figured that having one that was capable of shooting in low light and be decently wide would be a nice thing to have in my pocket. The 720P video is a bonus.



Yes it has a much bigger sensor, much faster glass, less pixels - but the preliminary results didn't look that good. Hopefully it's good as it's sounds like an ideal camera. Too bad Panasonic doesn't have digic IV.



Aug 27, 2008 at 09:05 PM
mfurman
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p.3 #3 · G10


I preordered mine at J&R (special deal on silver model)


Aug 27, 2008 at 09:06 PM
apdieb
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p.3 #4 · G10


Interesting.. I want black though.

Pixel - Not sure what digic 4 does quite yet...so I can't comment. However, I do understand that the LX3 has it's own new processor as well.

I saw a bunch of images from the camera. Some not so good and some stellar. Hard to say at this point really.




Aug 27, 2008 at 09:32 PM
alexanderino
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p.3 #5 · G10


I've saved screenshots and the entire text.

Canon Powershot G10 Announced

Canon’s newest flagship compact packs 14.7 megapixels, a 28-140mm 5x zoom, a 3 inch 460K pixel LCD and DPP-supported RAW into a familiar, but not identical body as its predecessor.

By Jack Howard
August 26, 2008

Canon has today announced the Canon Powershot G10 (SRP: $499), a 14.7 megapixel luxe-class compact digital camera as the replacement to the popular G9. The G10, along with the other compact cameras announced today, is powered by the Digic 4 processor.

Key upgrades and features of the G10 include:

-True 5x zoom wide angle lens (28-140mm equivalent.)
--Face Detection can recognize profiles.
-14.7 megapixel capture
-RAW format files editable
...Show more

Page 2 was empty.

Screencaps below for your pleasure:



Edited by alexanderino on Aug 28, 2008 at 02:42 AM GMT

Edited on Aug 27, 2008 at 09:42 PM



Aug 27, 2008 at 09:39 PM
Lance Couture
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p.3 #6 · G10


Pixel Perfect wrote:
That's pretty funny comparing the G10 and 50D. Yes I'm sure the G10 has crammed more pixels in and noise is a bit better, but given how pathetic these cameras are above ISO 400 (200 for many cameras) it'll still be pathetic. Now if they had used their brain and combined digic IV and left the camera at 10MP they might have actually given Fuji a run for their money.

Also begs the question why you think someone serious enough to want 15MP in a P&S doesn't get a DSLR in the first place. If you actually want 15MP to
...Show more


You misundertand the point I was trying to make. I wasnt comparing the G10 and 50D in terms of equivalent technologies.

With the current crop of releases, it seems we are witnessing the next "leap", if you will, in sensor technology.

Only a few pictures from the source have been posted (for the 50D), and no real vetting of the products. I completely understand the limitations of PnS sensors, but my point is the instant derision and criticism people heap upon the technology w/o and hands-on experience.

Who's to say yet that the G10's IQ will be less than the G9?

One is not going to get clean 1600 ISO out of a tiny PnS sensor, but if they can give lattitude to crop with higher res and equivalent or better noise at say... 400 ISO, then I think its an improvement.


Edited on Aug 27, 2008 at 09:41 PM



Aug 27, 2008 at 09:40 PM
galenapass
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p.3 #7 · G10


Lance - I think that Pixel understands your point. Many of us have watched the P&S market with interest because it would be nice to have something to compliment our DSLR equipment - as a carry all the time camera. It’s just that over time with increasing MP has come increasing noise and increased disappointment - not necessarily increased image IQ. I think its reasonable that if something happens say 10 times in a row that when for the 11th time we see more pixels added it can be concluded that yes we will probably see more noise as a result. Many people, I count myself as one, would like to see few pixels and better ISO performance in a P&S that uses raw format. Most of the time when I use a P&S it happens to be indoors where the lighting is poor and I need that ISO performance. Most of the time I am disappointed which has led me get rid of my P&S cameras. YMMV.


Aug 27, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Lance Couture
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p.3 #8 · G10


Believe me, I really do understand.

I'm just a proponent of technology, so I like to see things move forward.

I have gone through several PnSs in the last while, trying to find one to complement my SLRs and have been so frustrated, I've wanted to hurl them off of the highest mountain around here.

In the PnS segment, which I watch with some interest, I too have noticed an increase in MP with a corresponding increase in smearing at "high" ISOs (if 400-80o can be considered "high"). However, it seems to be that with the recent releases from both Canon and Nikon, perhaps we are at that next jump where we CAN see an increase in IQ as well as MP.

Point is that we dont know yet...

Edited on Aug 27, 2008 at 10:17 PM



Aug 27, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #9 · G10


Lance I know what your saying, but I'm saying the P&S pixel has gotten out of control and it's time someone had the courage to say enough's enough and make IQ a priority. At ISO 80-100 some of them can deliver stellar IQ and if the cameras only came with say a max of ISO 200 they'd make sense. But you have cameras with 1/2.5" sensors, 10-12MP and offering ISO 3200, which woulkdn't make an aceptable postage stamp and yet they market this as a feature. I'm sure a point would come where they'll offer ISO 1600 which is quite good - Fuji has been almost at that point for 2 years at least, but unlike DSLR's they are coming from such a pathetic baseline, they should step back and use their improved NR technologies in combination with lower pixel density sensors first. Deliver clean ISO 1600 at whatever MP it takes and then when that's sorted gradually bump up the MP. But I still stand by my premise making large prints from tiny sensors only exacerbates IQ faults even if the ISO is not an issue. I just can't see the point of marketing a P&S as a serious replacement for a DSLR.

I still have my Fuji S7000 from 2004 and it was released in 2003 and have not seen a P&S since that's impressed me, except finally maybe the LX-3



Aug 27, 2008 at 11:10 PM
Ron Hew
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p.3 #10 · G10


Andrew,
Go try the Ricoh GX200 out. 24.2-70 mm F2.8 if you really like P&S and I like the Panny LX-3 too



Aug 27, 2008 at 11:12 PM
galenapass
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p.3 #11 · G10


Lance I like your optimistic view - I hope you are correct. I guess we'll be waiting for those first G10 reviews.


Aug 27, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Lance Couture
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p.3 #12 · G10


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Lance I know what your saying, but I'm saying the P&S pixel has gotten out of control and it's time someone had the courage to say enough's enough and make IQ a priority. At ISO 80-100 some of them can deliver stellar IQ and if the cameras only came with say a max of ISO 200 they'd make sense. But you have cameras with 1/2.5" sensors, 10-12MP and offering ISO 3200, which woulkdn't make an aceptable postage stamp and yet they market this as a feature. I'm sure a point would come where they'll offer ISO 1600 which is
...Show more

I completely concur.

However, you and I both know that wont happen. Everything is driven by marketing.

I am in the IT industry and I see it ALL the time. The marketing people tell you Product Y can do it that much better than Product X, and it has all of these new "enhancements" etc, etc, etc., and the product rarely delivers what the marketing idiots say it will.

This is what all of this amounts to; people always want more on paper, but not always better. Only "better" if the marketing people say it is.

As an example, I was shooting an even for the dog sport I participate in. I had one of my 30D's w/ grip, 70-200/2.8, all mounted on my 'frotto 680B 'pod. Some woman who claimed to be a "professional" came walking up to me and says, "Show off.". I didnt understand what the hell she was talking about, and then she said "Flaunting your 70-200/2.8 are ya? What body are you using?". I simply replied "A 30D.". She then goes, "Well at least my camera is better, I have a 40D.", and then she walked off...

Now, in a nutshell, I think that pretty much sums up where the masses are at.

I dont think the MP race will ever slow. How could a marketing person sell "only 7 MP, but BOY does it have great IQ at 1600 ISO!"? Your average PnS buyer would pass over such a camera, as it "only" has 7MP.

It's sad but true.

I've been trying to find a Fuji F30 for some time now, but for the price of a used one, I can almost buy a new G9, so some people are at least wise to this situation...

Edited by Lance Couture on Aug 27, 2008 at 08:33 PM GMT

Edited on Aug 27, 2008 at 11:33 PM



Aug 27, 2008 at 11:31 PM
apdieb
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p.3 #13 · G10


Ron Hew wrote:
Andrew,
Go try the Ricoh GX200 out. 24.2-70 mm F2.8 if you really like P&S and I like the Panny LX-3 too


That was on my list as well to look at...Read a bunch about it too.. Glad to see at least a couple of manufacturers that are at least attempting to make more serious P&S's.. Perhaps because they don't have SLRs/Lenses to push..




Aug 27, 2008 at 11:32 PM
UCSB
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p.3 #14 · G10


apdieb wrote:
Interesting.. I want black though.


If you call on the phone ... they will sell the black model for $419.



Aug 27, 2008 at 11:44 PM
brainiac
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p.3 #15 · G10


Has anyone printed a G6 shot and a G9 shot of the exact same scene in the same light, at iso 800?

I think the reason everyone says iso 800 sucks on the G9 is that they are comparing 100% crops to 100% crops from lower megapixel cameras. That's completely misleading. It is my view that the entire "we want fewer pixels" crowd has made a basic error when examining noise: they are viewing files at different magnifications.

Below is a little reminder that if you bother to uprez crops so that they can be shown at the same magnification, then denser pixels doesn't necessarily mean more noise:
http://cyberphotographer.com/1ds3/dpr_D3v1Ds3_iso3200.jpg
Which image has more intrusive noise?

It isn't pixel density that makes these cameras struggle at high isos, it is the sensor size. I welcome the 28mm, 14.7Mpixel, CR2 producing G10.

Edited due to wrong crop!

Edited by brainiac on Sep 01, 2008 at 11:04 AM GMT

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 06:04 AM



Aug 27, 2008 at 11:59 PM
apdieb
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p.3 #16 · G10


UCSB wrote:
If you call on the phone ... they will sell the black model for $419.


Good to know! Can't believe the silver version is already instant rebated $100 and it hasn't hit the shelves in the US yet.



Aug 28, 2008 at 12:31 AM
galenapass
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p.3 #17 · G10


Here we go again.


Aug 28, 2008 at 12:31 AM
brunobarolo
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p.3 #18 · G10


brainiac wrote:
Below is a little reminder that if you bother to uprez crops so that they can be shown at the same magnification, then denser pixels doesn't necessarily mean more noise:
http://cyberphotographer.com/1ds3/1Ds3v1D3.jpg
Which image has more intrusive noise?



IMO impossible to judge because of the heavy noise reduction applied to the right one.



Aug 28, 2008 at 07:36 AM
OntheRez
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p.3 #19 · G10


Lance Couture wrote:
I love how everyone derides higher MP/sensor (50D and now G10), as if the technology never improves with these increments.

Maybe we should be trying to push old Pentium 150s to run at 5GHz, instead of shrinking the dies and adding multiple cores?

Give your heads a collective shake, people.


Lance,

I followed the discussion between you and several on this thread and do shake my head at the collective "truth" that more pixels = poorer IQ. Let's posit that there is some finite limit to the number of sensors that can be placed on a sensor of a given size. Let's also acknowledge that we don't currently know what that limit is. (By analogy from Moore's Law.} Let's also remember that the technology for light transforming sensors is younger than that of microprocessors. I suspect that our current level will be viewed as rather crude in a very short time given the rates of change for both sensors and processors. (For proof, simply note the rate of change in computing at large.)

Many photographers on this and other forums don't seem to recognize that a digital image is created as an interaction between the sensor and its processor. The actual A/D (analog to digital) transformation takes place at the sensor. I can assure you that our current sensor sizes are thousands of orders of magnitude larger than a quantum of light! So claiming that we have too many sensors in a given area is disingenuous at best. An extraordinary amount of time, brains, and money is being poured into sensor technology and material science. As far as I know no one has even begun to explore what the impact of nano-tech will be on light sensing. I find it incomprehensible that people don't realize that Canon (and other manufactures) is constantly updating and creating new/better sensors.

Each sensor produces a complex digital stream. Multiply this times the number of sensors (pixels) and you start to get a sense of how much data is involved. This is where the processor becomes important. I don't know what sort of algorithm is involved here but I suspect involves a massive number of fast Fourier Transformations applied some sort of vectored matrix algebra. This is a level of mathematics well beyond my pay grade! The processor then becomes the key to what the image looks like. I note that this "G10" and the actually announced 50D are using the DigicIV.

I don't know what all Canon has done to its processor and I suspect it is a closely held trade secret, but I'm certain that each generation is faster, has greater capacity, and has larger sections microcoded into the silicon. If a maker were to simply just dump more sensor data into an existing processor then yes, everyone would be justified in claiming that they were degrading IQ. This is not what the manufacturers are doing. To do so would be corporate suicide.

I've also suspected since the beginning of the DIII AF brouhaha, that the real problem lay in the processor code. Something is actually deciding too fast in certain situations as to what constitutes focus.

I can't believe that anyone would say my first PS (an Epson 3.1 mp gadget - wahoo!!) created a better image than my 12mp G9.

So you might as well all acknowledge the following things. Marketing hype aside, there will continue to be more sensors in every class of camera. (Funny that no one complained that the 1DsIII was "degraded" when it went to 21mp.) I'm certain that we will soon be looking at Giga-pixel sensors and people just won't be bothering to actually count them anymore. (Anybody remember when having 64K RAM in a PC made you the hottest thing on the planet? I've got 8GB in my current one and looking for more!) Processors will become faster, smaller, more efficient and we will increasingly have multiple processors so as to off-load tasks in order to speed up image acquisition.

Come on people! The fastest, best camera on earth is nothing compared to our eyes. I'm looking out the window above my monitor, thru a screen past the low branches of two trees and seeing a tall sunflower catching the morning light in a soft breeze. Everything is in focus and there is no "bokah". No camera can even begin to "see" this. We've a long ways to go!

Hmm, think I'll take my clumsy black box out there and see what interpretation I can create from this scene.

Robert

Edited on Sep 21, 2008 at 11:00 AM · View previous versions



Aug 28, 2008 at 08:49 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #20 · G10


brunobarolo wrote:
IMO impossible to judge because of the heavy noise reduction applied to the right one.


It's quite easy to judge actually: the right image is more blurred because it comes from a 12 megapixel camera, not a 21 megapixel camera. The large blobs of colour arise because some kind of chroma averaging seems to have been applied (we know Nikon D3's do this). If any larger radius chroma noise blending is applied, colours will bleed even more over luminance borders and the colour-by numbers look will become even more noticeable to the detriment of the quality of the image.

The image on the left does not suffer from large scale blobs of noise, and given appropriate chroma blending in the range of a few pixels it will extend its lead over the right-hand crop even further by having terrific luminance detail with relatively unintrusive chroma blobbing.

Don't take my word for it though. Test a D3 and 1Ds3 at iso 3200 and 6400. Apply sensible noise reduction to each, and see how you get on. Obviously the Canon will need different noise reduction to the Nikon file, since the D3 does NR in camera. Be sure to uprez the Nikon files to 21 megapixel before comparing 100% crops though, otherwise you will be scrutinising the 1Ds3 image much closer than the D3 one. Or just make 12x16" prints if you mistakenly think uprezzing the D3 file is unfair for some reason.

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 06:03 AM



Aug 28, 2008 at 09:37 AM
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