You guys complain about a. attaboys b. 16.000+ posters c. no critique given, right?
Well, the so-called 'attaboys' (bad name!) are the ones who actually do offer the very critique that you're after. Just read their replies!!! And they do it regularly and to people who ask for help or are inexperienced. Therefore it's pretty logical to me that they build up post numbers! I mean, how could they not? So I am asking myself what do you guys expect? People who hardly ever comment so that they don't build up numbers but offer the best critique in the world? How is that going to work?
I very much second John Lehmkuhl's reply about that here are actual living people participating here who often have met and formed friendships and are lucky enough to enjoy this forum and its members and all that comes with it. They might not be professionals up to Jeffrey's standards but they are genuine and passionate and kind, and these are attributes that this forum needs and thrives on. Without these people the landscape forum would be a sad place indeed, believe me.
So to all the ones who spent a considerable time here phrasing their complaints: why not use this time and lead by example and start offering that very critique that you say is missing thus enriching the landscape or other forum? I am 100% sure if it's constructive rather than arrogant and dismissive it will be very well received by those asking for it and help everyone!
You guys complain about a. attaboys b. 16.000+ posters c. no critique given, right?
Well, the so-called 'attaboys' (bad name!) are the ones who actually do offer the very critique that you're after. Just read their replies!!! And they do it regularly and to people who ask for help or are inexperienced. Therefore it's pretty logical to me that they build up post numbers! I mean, how could they not? So I am asking myself what do you guys expect? People who hardly ever comment so that they don't build up numbers but offer the best critique in the world? How is that going to work?
I very much second John Lehmkuhl's reply about that here are actual living people participating here who often have met and formed friendships and are lucky enough to enjoy this forum and its members and all that comes with it. They might not be professionals up to Jeffrey's standards but they are genuine and passionate and kind, and these are attributes that this forum needs and thrives on. Without these people the landscape forum would be a sad place indeed, believe me.
So to all the ones who spent a considerable time here phrasing their complaints: why not use this time and lead by example and start offering that very critique that you say is missing thus enriching the landscape or other forum? I am 100% sure if it's constructive rather than arrogant and dismissive it will be very well received by those asking for it and help everyone! ...Show more →
Hey, All I'm saying is post something of substance.. if you are doing that, who cares how many times you do it!
I don't see a crisis here either, and yes, some aspects of what goes on here annoys, but so does just about every other aspect of modern life! Why should FM Landscape be any different? It's populated by a very talented bunch of very kind, and sometimes annoying people like myself.
I second all of John's comments; the community aspect of this forum is unique, and the attaboy attitude is unavoidable among quasi-friends. Nikonmac also makes some valid points. While I understand where you're coming from Jeffrey, and feel similarly, I don't think this is the forum for this to happen. For those starting out, the attaboys and gentle suggestions probably help more than they hurt. Most of those people seem to need encouragement rather than critiques to carry on. If you'll notice, some of the more 'advanced' guys receive the harshest and most frequent critiques, and those that really want it request it.
When 3 of my personal favorite photographers post on here (namely Adamus, realkuhl, and briangg) I always try to critique the hell out of their shots. Firstly, their shots are usually excellent, they're very skilled, and it's obvious they can take and might appreciate the critique. Additionally, I think analysis of good work helps inferior photographers understand things better than analysis of inferior work. When ordinary or sub-par stuff is posted, I often offer some gentle help or simply don't comment at all, unless it's from someone who usually produces much better stuff. It's hard to critique a really crappy shot; that's why there's entire books written on composition. Where should I start? Or should I just point to an amazon link?
One global thank you per day would be nice as well. There's no reason to have 20 thank yous from the OP in 20 different replies. It's just as courteous to quote and thank them all in one post.
ajkessler wrote:
I don't think this is the forum for this to happen.
This is so true, AJ. I think the forum is what it is, and it's hard to change the way the group functions. Once guidelines are set and a forum gets it's personality, it is hard to change anything. Probably the only way to structure something different would be to have a new forum with rules laid out from the beginning.
KPieper wrote:
This is so true, AJ. I think the forum is what it is, and it's hard to change the way the group functions. Once guidelines are set and a forum gets it's personality, it is hard to change anything. Probably the only way to structure something different would be to have a new forum with rules laid out from the beginning.
I agree with both of you!
The other thing I'd like to say is that it's just dawned on me that the people who are most vocally negative on this thread don't even contribute to the Landscape forum. In fact I've never heard of some of you! I suggest if this is something you feel so passionately about, start posting images and making meaningful critiques. Lead by example! That way if you want to start "mentoring" other posters on how to give meaningful critiques, they will care about what you are saying because you have made yourself part of the forum.
The other thing I'd like to say is that it's just dawned on me that the people who are most vocally negative on this thread don't even contribute to the Landscape forum. In fact I've never heard of some of you! I suggest if this is something you feel so passionately about, start posting images and making meaningful critiques. Lead by example! That way if you want to start "mentoring" other posters on how to give meaningful critiques, they will care about what you are saying because you have made yourself part of the forum.
Sorry, not a landscape shooter. However, on Sports and People where I am most of the time, the issues are exactly the same hence the interest beyond the Landscape Forum.
I have spent considerable time looking over the various posts in this thread. I do agree that some changes could be made that would be very helpful to the whole community at FM. Right now there are some rewards for making frivolous posts:
1. Your subject gets moved to the top of the forum. This is not a small reward. Just a few days ago, I was looking at who was posting comments on my picture. My picture was half way down on the first page. Over about 20 minutes time period, about one person viewed my picture. Just for fun, I made a comment basically thanking someone else for commenting on my picture, which moved my post to the top of the forum. I looked at how many views I had over the next 10 minutes and it was around 20. Being at the top, your picture gets seen more.
2. Every post that is made is recorded in a counter that goes next to my name. Everyone who sees my name can see how many posts I have made. I wonder if this is a type of status symbol for some people. I know that when I was new to the forum, I felt a little embarrassed seeing my name with 31 posts or 110 posts when there were other people with 15,000. It does put a little bit of pressure on other people in the forum to try to “keep up” if you will. The more frivolous posts I have, the bigger my number looks and the more important I feel!
I would suggest 2 changes which should not really offend anyone.
1. If we changed how the forum posts are arranged and simply put them in the order of posting and did not allow a subject to be bumped to the top of the list, I think there would be less frivolous posts. Frivolous posts would not affect the order of pictures on the page either. It’d be more “fair”.
2. If the username did not have the number of posts attached to it for everyone to see, then people might not feel the need to "keep up". Instead they would focus on the quality of their comments instead of the quantity. I think it would still be okay for someone to see how many posts they had by clicking on their own name. However it shouldn't be attached to my name on every post I make. What purpose does that really serve?
If those changes were made, people could still give their “attaBoy!” comments but it would not affect the flow of everybody else in the forum. Those types of comments would have less influence in what is really seen.
I also really like the idea of choosing one picture to critique and perhaps inviting 4 or 5 people to go in depth on their critique of it. That would be helpful for everyone. It would also give very good example on how to critique a photograph well. As people see how that is done, they will start doing it more themselves instead of simply saying "great job".
There are a lot of ideas, complaints, suggestions and observations added to this post which are not at all the topic that I originally posted about. I don't mind that, it is the evolution of good debate. However, many participants on this thread now think that I brought up all those issues, and are telling me to act on them or fix them. Sorry, go back and start at the top.
Jeffrey wrote:
There are a lot of ideas, complaints, suggestions and observations added to this post which are not at all the topic that I originally posted about. I don't mind that, it is the evolution of good debate. However, many participants on this thread now think that I brought up all those issues, and are telling me to act on them or fix them. Sorry, go back and start at the top.
You are the fix-it man you know! Atta-boy, go git 'em.
And we all know the person the brings up a problem get to fix it.
gordon l wrote:
2. If the username did not have the number of posts attached to it for everyone to see, then people might not feel the need to "keep up". Instead they would focus on the quality of their comments instead of the quantity. I think it would still be okay for someone to see how many posts they had by clicking on their own name. However it shouldn't be attached to my name on every post I make. What purpose does that really serve?
--Gordon
Every forum I've ever seen does this. It's definitely a status symbol, though on some forums, say maybe a car care forum or something, number of posts might dictate some authority or might be a reason to weigh one opinion more heavily than another. If someone with 0 posts tells me to wash my car with sandpaper and someone with 1000 posts tells me to use product x because it's amazing, I'm likely to give more credence to poster b.
Whether this is warranted or not is debatable. Seeing a million posts next to Shatterkiss' name over in lighting might help when he offers his sage advice. I sort of fail to see how it matters on the landscape forum though, as the goal (well, my goal) is to appeal to a broad range of people, both 'educated' and not. I couldn't care less about the number of posts someone has when commenting, especially when you consider some extremely talented folks have just joined and have almost no posts to their name.
I don't care about number of posts showing or not. I do check out what they say first (you can tell who knows thier stuff...Simon KNOWS his stuff for example since you brought that up), and what I see on thier website and from other posts they make on presentation boards. But agree that some folks here are really at the top of the game and I listen to them more. And I do NOT mean if they are full-time pro or not. Quite a few "hobby" shooters and "part-time" pros here that are better than full-time pros so IMO, that makes no difference at all. What they say lends credibilty. That being said, I do understand what you mean about some lending too much imporatance to the number of posts and they may intutively think more about what a person says, but one have to temper that reaction.
Racking up posts is meaningless really. Very short posts are common and I type really fast and have a habit of never reading what I type before hitting 'send.' It is too much work on this kind of forum to "edit" my work, so you see lots of typos, mis-speelings, etc--but I would hope most people understand that.
I have a suggestion about the post counter. And it's borrowed from my Jeep forum, "rubicon owners forum"(nicknamed the Rubi). Instead of having the number of posts displayed, they have different levels posted right under your screenname. And from memory it goes something like this:
You could come up with something like that here, and would show how much someone has been around, but after a certain point, you're there, and it doesnt reward you for having 49,000 posts.
Nichigo wrote:
I agree with the OP...i'm a new photographer and definitely would like constructive criticism, negative and positive, to help improve myself.
Share your work with us and you'll get it. Perhaps not in every single post, but the key is to share.
Damn! And here I was thinking I am a good photographer!
Kidding.
Being new, I actually agree. We newcommers need the real deal. If our images are crap, tell us it's crap. If our images are the cat's meow, tell us. Be honest with us.
