Good points Jeffrey and precisely why I rarely post anymore. I see the same people over and over giving undeserved praise to just about any picture that is posted. You look at their registration date and the number of posts they have and you wonder if they just park here all day and post nonsense. Clearly they are trying to get some kind of life validation from the internet forum experience. The whole thing reminds me of high school and trying to be popular.
And like others have mentioned, there are posts that ought to be 10 or 20 pages down but the original poster waits until it just slips off the front page to post yet another thank you to each and every person individually.
This is a non-stop issue that as pointed out can be read from 2 different sides of the river (have to keep it in landscaper terminology )
Part of the "gotcha" with the FM forums is that a LOT of the people here, have actually MET, hung out for a few days, shot together, had dinner together and become more than just internet personalities that have no faces to connect to. So there are these families which can be misread as "cliques" very easily that know each other and appreciate seeing somebody they know post a new image, which proves that that person is still getting out with their camera and seeing the world.... this is a valuable life enrichment that most photography forms don't offer. I also frequent the Photo SIG Site which is 100% ONLY about critiques of images. I don't find anywhere near the value that FM has as a place to share my work.
95% of the people that post in these forums are not full-time professionals. If we were, there would be no time to spend on these forums because of the amount of work required to make a living with photography (especially landscape photography).
The one "fix" that would change how these forums are used and at times abused, would be to stop the "bump to the top" ability of a post. They show up in sequential order and never change that order. On top of this a small thumbnail of the image with each post that has an image would greatly help.
Finally, there are times when I feel like providing lots of critiques and I actively look for the images that have no replies or only a few to see if I can offer suggestions on things to work on improving. But there are other times when I don't feel like taking the time required to give a nice critique, so I don't. I kind of like that FM works this way.....
There are a number of members in the FM forums that receive tons of posts that don't "deserve" the attention, but there are more reasons why that image got attention than the quality of the shot posted. Don't know the solution because I like the activity level of the landscape forum a lot...
Maybe working towards channeling this energy to helping others thru a sticky would be a good place to start.... we all know there are many that don't feel "qualified" to post a critique since even the mediocre work is better than what they feel their work is (not true in many cases).
Not an easy job being a moderator, but I truly appreciate both your efforts and your presence, Jeffrey !!
pdxmac wrote:
One additional thing, I struggle to see the purpose of posting an image on which no one can comment. Why bother?
It was somewhat tongue-in-cheek when I posted that suggestion. I don't really see a purpose in posting without being able to have comments either.
I think the idea of a sticky thread with guidelines for critiquing is a good idea. I'll propose another idea that I've proposed in the past. That is to have the moderator or designee pick an image that was posted during the week and have a panel of photogs (? picked by moderator) post a very detailed critique as a learning venture. I'd be curious as to what other people think about that. Of course, the owner of the image would have to be willing. After the 4 or 5 critiques are done, a discussion could ensue, hopefully in the end a more polished image is generated. The idea would not be to make this a popularity contest, but to find images that could use some polishing or something about the comp would make for an interesting discussion.
Ariel Bravy wrote:
What if there was a selection box when you go to post an image in the landscape section designating whether you are simply displaying your work or whether you want genuine c&c, or both?
Sounds like a great addition.
+1 for that.
I am thrilled that the moderator has taken such a bold stance, and I agree heartily that such forums should be for constructive criticism. However, you can see the same phenomenon on virtually any forum, with any subject. Some folks just want "attaboys." (a great term, BTW!)
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On the subject of people posting opinions who are not qualified: This is much more difficult.
First of all, who is NOT qualified? Often it is the uninformed, non-technical opinion that counts the most.
Second, a noob (such as myself) may post a comment regarding some pic that is as much a question as a comment, thus spurring new, related discussion. For instance, one might say: "I love the color saturation, but the edged seem soft. Was that a conscious trade-off with lens & setting choices?" Now, maybe I'm wrong, the saturation could suck to an experienced shutterbug, but it furthers discussion AND helps me (and other noobs) learn.
realkuhl wrote:
They people that post individual thank you's for every comment need to be asked to stop doing that. That is one thing that drives me nuts.....
Agreed,,though this seems like common courtesy. Perhaps if this were stated clearly in the sticky, people would feel less guilty about NOT adding all the thank-you's.
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Another sticky suggestion:
I've seen a number of threads wherein the OP didn't include many details about the shot, and then in subsequent posts folks have to ask for said details. It should be mandatory to include as much info as possible, to cut down on the obvious questions later:
camera / lens.
Aperture
ISO
Shutter speed
Aprox distance to subject
Overview of lighting used, if applicable
-Maybe even ambient light conditions, for instance, was it sunny or overcast? Indoors were there flourescents or incandescent bulbs? -etc, etc, etc .....
realkuhl wrote:
They people that post individual thank you's for every comment need to be asked to stop doing that. That is one thing that drives me nuts.....
I always respond to every poster that makes a specific comment on the presentation boards...not the gear boards. It is not always a thank you, but an acknowlegement. On the presentation boards, I find this a basic common courtesy and no intention of stopping. I also find it in really bad form for someone to post a comment on a photo posted and not get any reply from the person that posted the photo and was looking for comments. For those that do this, I never comment on their posts again...I have better things to do.
Maybe a larger solution would be for in the presentation boards, if someone wants comments and critiques, they ASK for it. I always through long habit, say at the end of my posts on presentation boards, "C&C encouraged." If added to that, were a sticky explaining what a useful C&C would be, it might help....maybe. Of course a full C&C is not realistic on FM. I normally just pick up on the one or two biggest issues and comment on those. I always lace that with an equal number of "what was done right" items, just to balance out the post.
But you know, I don't personally need that. If someone gives me a hard critique and does not comment on any positive aspect, so what? I'm learning, they are sharing, and if they are curt...so be it! You are not ever going to get a totally uniform C&C reply, touching on all issues, and written in a way that the sensitive among us will be always happy...a good goal, but it ain't gonna happen.
Oh, and for limiting the frequent posters...HAH! Leave us alone, we like FM!
I agree on the thanks for every comment, but one problem I ran into, when a series I posted racked up a lot of comments, was quoting someone led you with having to reply to that and then make a new reply to quote someone else. I tried to get them all in at one time so my images weren't just sitting at the top.
I learned a while ago this landscape forum was for display more than anything. I have been on this forum the longest and people have appreciated the Everglades so I continue to show it to them. I also love to see what they have been getting into. If I want my images really critiqued i put them up on NPN.
paulmarcellini wrote:
I agree on the thanks for every comment, but one problem I ran into, when a series I posted racked up a lot of comments, was quoting someone led you with having to reply to that and then make a new reply to quote someone else. I tried to get them all in at one time so my images weren't just sitting at the top.
I learned a while ago this landscape forum was for display more than anything. I have been on this forum the longest and people have appreciated the Everglades so I continue to show it to them. I also love to see what they have been getting into. If I want my images really critiqued i put them up on NPN....Show more →
Oh, and I don't mean reply to replies...that can get to be too much. But somewhere in there, let the person know you read what they took the time to write. While I don't usually do it, sometimes I'll do one post to many people at the same time...in a list form...but I like this less...just a personal opinion, but sometimes that is the only reasonable way to do it if you get a LOT of comments.
MSC wrote:
I always respond to every poster that makes a specific comment on the presentation boards...not the gear boards. It is not always a thank you, but an acknowlegement. On the presentation boards, I find this a basic common courtesy and no intention of stopping. I also find it in really bad form for someone to post a comment on a photo posted and not get any reply from the person that posted the photo and was looking for comments. For those that do this, I never comment on their posts again...I have better things to do.
Why is it bad form to give a global thank you to all those commenting? I can understand if someone asks a question to answer it, or if there is a point that needs a reply. But really, when I comment on an image, I don't go back to see if they acknowledged my comment-I know they read it!
This thread has taken on many forms and addressed many issues. Even if I put up a sticky with 'guidelines' on forum behavior, critiquing, thanking, asking for data, being nice, being not so nice, etc, I would only be asking for my head to be bashed in constantly by the majority of the members who would disagree with something I wrote. Some of that is already in this thread. Considering the possibilities, we are a pretty well mannered group! This thread is becoming a steam-off valve, and if so, then good. Better to see that here than there.
I put this thread in this forum to keep Landscape cleaner and not to disrupt it's purpose. I appreciate you all finding it. Keep 'em coming....
KPieper wrote:
Why is it bad form to give a global thank you to all those commenting? I can understand if someone asks a question to answer it, or if there is a point that needs a reply. But really, when I comment on an image, I don't go back to see if they acknowledged my comment-I know they read it!
OK, good point...a global thank you can work. I guess what I mean is if some one says "Great Shot" and you get a bunch of those, then sure, a global thanks is fine. I meant to refer to when someone takes some time on the comment, says something meaningful that is not a little quick 5 sec comment. Fair enough, you got me. ...maybe there is no one right answer here as there are so many varibles, like the one you pointed out.
Jeffrey wrote:
This thread has taken on many forms and addressed many issues. Even if I put up a sticky with 'guidelines' on forum behavior, critiquing, thanking, asking for data, being nice, being not so nice, etc, I would only be asking for my head to be bashed in constantly by the majority of the members who would disagree with something I wrote. Some of that is already in this thread. Considering the possibilities, we are a pretty well mannered group! This thread is becoming a steam-off valve, and if so, then good. Better to see that here than there.
I put this thread in this forum to keep Landscape cleaner and not to disrupt it's purpose. I appreciate you all finding it. Keep 'em coming.......Show more →
Hey, talking through an issue is good! ...usually.
I've been thinking about this post today while I've been working. I guess I dont see where any of the problems here are earth shattering enough to have to restructure anything over. I mean really, there are only about 4 people who comment on everything regardless of what it is, and they all have like 16,000 + posts! I dont need to say who they are, you all know who they are. I only have some 800 or so posts, and that seems like tons to me! I think back on that, and wonder what the hell I had to say 800 times! Nevermind the 16K crowd. Some of those people have constructive posts sometimes as well, so... painting with a broad brush and all that..
I've always thought FM landscape was such a positive group of people.. and talented! I know I've been helped immensely over the past few years. I guess I'm kind of surprised to find there are so many people getting all aggro about it. After all, it is just an internet forum, albeit a damn fine one.
I guess all I'm saying is isnt it just more practical to take the good with the bad here? Within reason of course.. I'm one of the first people to press the report button for troll-like behavior, which we seem to be getting A LOT of lately.
Can't we all just be friends? Come on hug it out.. hug it out..
It's something I've noticed for a while, everyone seems to be walking on egg shells trying not to offend anyone.
I'm far from the best photographer in the world but it's very rare I see a photo where I can't offer some form of critique or way of improving it, it's very very difficult to get a perfect image, and surely other people see these imperfections as I do.
There's also been a lot of pretty bland bad photos, which I've looked at and thought "Wow that was taken with a 5d? Looks like a p+s shot", but I've refrained on saying anything because there's loads of posts saying "Great photo, colours are superb" etc. Also being new here I haven't quite yet picked up the full etiquette so I try to be a bit conservative with my posts.
If I were to post up photos, if they were bad and I could do better I'd like to be told that. I would much rather be told "Exposures good but next time try a different, less centered, composition" or "The lighting seems a bit bland, have you tried off camera lighting?" than a page of posts just saying "Great photo!". Hell, I'd even prefer a bunch of comments saying "Sorry but it's poorly composed, bland subject and underexposed, I'd reshoot the whole thing" than that, at least they're being honest .
To parallel Dan's post, I know that I've posted, and seen others post, asking for critique (both in the critique forum or the forum best related to the subject mater) that falls from the front page with no responses. I'm sure some of this is because people don't want to post negative comments about the picture, or they find it uninteresting, or maybe they're just busy. But I know for myself, and Dan and others, some honest feedback would be great, even if it is like he said "reshoot the whole thing". No feedback at all doesn't help the community or its members from growing and learning.
Jeffrey, if you think there are too many attaboys here, that praise images that aren't very good, believe me, there are places far worse than FM landscape forum .
I find I've been "attaboy-ing" a lot lately, but that's only because I've seen some nice work there. I don't have a lot of time or connection to look at every thread, so I just pick. When I like something, I say I like this or that, if I don't like something, I say so.
And some word about "professional comments". You should come here for a few months and I assure you you'd be blasted by pretty much every "pro" (the quotes are there on purpose) and some people as well - happened to me at the exhibition 2 weeks ago, except she didn't said it to me directly, didn't know I was right behind her. I find the Landscape photographers aren't terribly respected here. The more depressive BS you're shooting, the more you're respected and praised.
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