I never ask nor require exclusivity. Ever. Live and let live.
I'm running a photography business not a coffee shop in Amsterdam. Keep in mind I'm not talking about shooting ball sports, it would be impossible to police a LL field. And like Paul mentioned there just isn't enough money in shooting ball sports anymore.
I've had PWC's ask for advice on how to shoot, what to buy, the whole nine yards. I don't mind engaging them - you are building bridges for your business. This is a personality-driven business if you make it that way - and that makes it harder for a big studio to come in and replace you. It becomes personal to the organization.
I've also had PWC (with quite good gear) tell me a month later that they loved this picture or that one, and that they bought a big print (this was a situation where I'm a subcontractor so I don't see the orders). Build the relationship, and a lot of times the PWC can be your biggest fan. People who like to take pictures tend to like looking at pictures and many times will buy. They appreciate the difficulty of what you do.
There's tons of DSLR's running around now. You just have to be a few degrees better than the person operating them, and be able to describe what's better. Salesmanship!
Lee and Paul... sorry guys, but this is already happening.
See www.picateers.com
Also search picateers in google to for articles that describe how this fulfilment startup facilitates volunteer parents with cameras to shoot Team & Individuals, as well as school portraits, in an organized manner, and then donates 50% of the proceeds back to the schools... which motivates the parents with cameras, lights, backdrops, and a favorites file full of tips from FM, to shoot these teams and protraits for the school gratis, cutting the local "pro" photographers as well as the "Lifetouch" operations out of the picture altogether, so to speak.
Picateers was mentioned also in the Pro Digital forum.
Focus Locus wrote:
Lee and Paul... sorry guys, but this is already happening.
See www.picateers.com
Also search picateers in google to for articles that describe how this fulfilment startup facilitates volunteer parents with cameras to shoot Team & Individuals, as well as school portraits, in an organized manner, and then donates 50% of the proceeds back to the schools... which motivates the parents with cameras, lights, backdrops, and a favorites file full of tips from FM, to shoot these teams and protraits for the school gratis, cutting the local "pro" photographers as well as the "Lifetouch" operations out of the picture altogether, so to speak.
Picateers was mentioned also in the Pro Digital forum.
I know from experience that I can hand a Mark II with a 300f/2.8 to a student photographer and get back some ACCEPTABLE action images....but to never have an inexperienced...even a professional...photographer around for team photo day.
I've seen what a group of parents tried to do a couple of years ago using the same approach for their team photos and they weren't acceptable.
This is one area of the photography business better left to the professionals.
I'm a PWC as well as a editorial/stock shooter (20 years). I shoot my kids events (soccer, volleyball indoor/out, swimming topside/underwater, surf, football) often, with the same gear I use for my professional work, including big glass. My motivation for shooting my kids' sports is obvious. I know and abide by the rules of the event regarding photography when I shoot as a parent.
I cannot agree more with some of the earlier comments about treating PWCs such as myself with respect and friendliness. I see condescension bordering on arrogance toward PWCs in some posts, which frankly surprises me. I often have contracted photographers approach me at events as my gear is that of a working pro (first question is who am I shooting for). When the conversation is pleasant (which is 95% of the time) it will perhaps work to the contract shooter's advantage: I remind other parents that a pro is present and they should be sure to go by the desk or website to see what the pro captured and not limit themselves to just the images I shot of their kids (given gratis only to teammates, no sales).
On the other hand, if I get a bad vibe from a contracted photographer -- unprofessional attitude, arrogance about me, my gear or my simply being a PWC with what he considers to be too much camera for my own good, or an overly large sense of entitlement about the event -- it will work against him. Sure, he can be as condescending about me and other parents as he wants behind our backs if he wishes. However, if that attitude rises to the surface enough that it detracts from my enjoyment of the event or that of other parents -– which has occurred only a few times in my experience -- it may cost him or his company $$$. I'll do what I can by working with the league and organizers to ensure that things are improved from the perspective of the families (parents and kids) whose money is underwriting some or all of the event, particularly if it means that the shooter or his company is not given an opportunity to negotiate for the event or the team/individual photo day in the future. Since the organization is often composed of (at least partly) parents, volunteers, or local business interests, its pretty straightforward to contact them and exert some influence. I've had to do this twice over the years, unfortunately. Within the rules of the event and venue, PWCs get one shot at photographing their kids as they grow up and cannot afford to have that opportunity adversely affected by a CPWA (contracted photographer with attitude).
butchM wrote:
If you're asking me ? Yeah .... just because a DWC or MWC is there doesn't always equate to lost sales. Second of all, I'm more concerned about doing my job than worrying about who else is trying to take pictures.
Most often, those receiving free photos from a parent, more than likely were never going to buy in the first place. Those that really want a photo from the event will buy regardless.
In my example, even though I was the "official photographer" I could have asked for the father to be removed from the area he was shooting from. Technically, he was not allowed to be there. (not my rules, venue rules) I didn't ask. Instead we made small talk, compared notes, shared experiences, etc. One week later I received an order from him. If I had him booted, I don't think that would have happened. This wouldn't happen on every occasion, but I have always preferred to make fiends, not enemies.
There are some serious important issues for those of us in this business, alienating parents doesn't rank at the top of my list....Show more →
Nope, not you; timing of the replies. Replying to pvhphoto. I think my post above essentially is in accord with yours. Sorry for the confusion.
butchM wrote:
If you're asking me ? Yeah .... just because a DWC or MWC is there doesn't always equate to lost sales. Second of all, I'm more concerned about doing my job than worrying about who else is trying to take pictures.
Most often, those receiving free photos from a parent, more than likely were never going to buy in the first place. Those that really want a photo from the event will buy regardless.
In my example, even though I was the "official photographer" I could have asked for the father to be removed from the area he was shooting from. Technically, he was not allowed to be there. (not my rules, venue rules) I didn't ask. Instead we made small talk, compared notes, shared experiences, etc. One week later I received an order from him. If I had him booted, I don't think that would have happened. This wouldn't happen on every occasion, but I have always preferred to make fiends, not enemies.
There are some serious important issues for those of us in this business, alienating parents doesn't rank at the top of my list....Show more →
Butch:
Good points...
I know with the high school and youth sports contracts I have in place...most parents with cameras won't bother me while I'm shooting but will call to set up an appointment if they have camera questions or are asking about career choices for their children or themselves?
I don't know how it is with other professionals, but some of my clients...with cameras...will call or e-mail with special game requests or just ask if I will be at a certain contest so they don't have to drag their camera equipment with them.
High school football played under the lights with halftime band performances and cheerleaders in action are huge sellers for me and the average parent just doesn't have the equipment, skill, experience or field access to take those types of photos...and...watch their son or daughter perform or compete.
Also...other high school sports that are hard for the average parent to shoot are nightime soccer as well as basketball, wrestling, swimming and gymnastics.
Youth soccer, baseball, softball and football played during daylight are where I see
the greatest number of cameras with parents.
jsinclair1 wrote:
If it is a public event and there are no guidelines to spectators about "No Photography" then I would say it's a free for all.
Let's just say if you approached me either as a dad or a pro (Referring to me as a dad or a Pro - which I am both) and told me to stop shooting with my gear at a public event....
I'd tell you to stick it.
Now if I went and put a tent up and started selling images...well thats another story.
I agree here. Being a semi-pro and a dad, I know enough to know that legally (at least in Maryland) if it's public event, you have every right to shoot. If a parent ask me to shoot their child, I'ld be foolish not to try to sell some captures.
Also, it's nice to help the newbies. I usually end up overfilling them with info, but that's just cuz one topic often leads to another. Your helping the cause by helping the rookies.
My favorite line, "Are you a pro?"...
my response, "I'm just a dad with a camera"
I would have to disagree, Paul. I make all sorts of money shooting action sports.
as for the rest of this stuff, I didn't read very much of it, but I will add my $0.02 anyway. I will shoot my son's LL games, and I am a professional. Whether someone else has a contract with the league or not, I am fairly certain I am going to be much more happy with my own photos than any aforementioned photographer might take, Also, if I am an exclusive photographer for an event, I never ask any parent to stop shooting. I do point people out to the event organizers if anybody is where they are not allowed to be or stepping on my toes. But, it's not my job to police the event, that job belongs to the organizers.
I look at it much like I would any professional sporting event I shoot also. If they can outshoot me then their photos should be used. If they cannot, then they are no skin off my nose.
Z_man wrote:
And what gives you the right to set a "rule" prohibiting parents "from shooting within the fence line?" I assume you are shooting at a public facility where I, as a parent, have every right to shoot whereever I can, inside or outside the fence line. I am not sure how you can prevent anyone from selling whatever they want. If I want to sell another parent a 5x7 for my printing cost, what are you going to do to stop me?
Your "rules" are unenforceable.
I never said *I* enforce them. The league does that for me. So yeah, that makes them pretty enforceable. I've seen the league board members take care of situations like that on multiple occasions.
And, as noted, the rule about being inside the fence line is the leagues as well. Parents are not allowed on the field of play for insurance reasons. I'm covered, they're not.
NickyD wrote:
Also, if I am an exclusive photographer for an event, I never ask any parent to stop shooting. I do point people out to the event organizers if anybody is where they are not allowed to be or stepping on my toes. But, it's not my job to police the event, that job belongs to the organizers.
One of the biggest problems with this scenario in my opinion has to do with liability and trademarks. Sure parents can take photos and sure they can attempt to sell them. However, most leagues do not realize the liability at stake when allowing an unauthorized, uninsured personnel on or close to the field of play. Additionally how many PWAC's know that Little League baseball does have guidelines with regard to the display of the LL logo? Not really as big an issue as liability but just illustrates the problems with non-approved shooters selling images. In all honesty although it really doesn't affect me or my business, I would hate to see a kid hurt or a league sued over such lack of knowledge.
Any more, I really don't care and certainly don't want to stop parents from shooting. It makes no difference on sales, sport sales stink compared to other event shooting.
How many times do you hear..."Hey, take some of my kid, number 12, I will buy all you take of him!" Honestly, I just smile and walk on...
I would love to be a fly on the wall when you went up to one of these parents and asked them not to shoot photos of their kids. In my younger years, you might have walked back away with a nice white lens protruding from your backside. Nowadays, I would likely just laugh.
Once again, it seems folks don't understand what is public. Just because it is held at a public park baseball diamond doesn't necessarily mean it is a public event. Most likely, it is not public.
Can't imagine a wedding photographer stopping the ceremony or reception to insist that guest put their cameras away.
I would think the "exclusive" afforded to a contracted photographer is limited to access and sales. Anything else starts to feel like violation of constitutional rights.
John Thawley wrote:
I would think the "exclusive" afforded to a contracted photographer is limited to access and sales. Anything else starts to feel like violation of constitutional rights.
NickyD wrote:
I would have to disagree, Paul. I make all sorts of money shooting action sports.
as for the rest of this stuff, I didn't read very much of it, but I will add my $0.02 anyway. I will shoot my son's LL games, and I am a professional. Whether someone else has a contract with the league or not, I am fairly certain I am going to be much more happy with my own photos than any aforementioned photographer might take, Also, if I am an exclusive photographer for an event, I never ask any parent to stop shooting. I do point people out to the event organizers if anybody is where they are not allowed to be or stepping on my toes. But, it's not my job to police the event, that job belongs to the organizers.
I look at it much like I would any professional sporting event I shoot also. If they can outshoot me then their photos should be used. If they cannot, then they are no skin off my nose. ...Show more →
Nicky- FYI: Click on the "www" in Paul's profile. He shoots a bit of action from time to time himself... Sometimes you guys are so full of your arguments that you don't catch the humor!
