I'm sure this has been covered several times over, I just can't find it. If you have been hired/contracted to photograph an event, do you ask the parent with the "professional" grade camera equipment to please not shoot? Does their postion relative to the event have a bearing on whether or not you ask them to stop. For example, I had a mother at a baseball tournament that I was shooting, standing inside the fence, first base side shooting with her D200, 70-200 VR. What if she had been in the bleachers?
On the other hand, just this past weekend, I was approached by the photographer doing the soccer tournament that my son was playing in. I was shooting with my D2X/300 combo. He asked if I was a pro or a dad. I answered "dad." He left me alone. The thing is I saw the photogs tent near the field my son was playing on as soon as we arrived. I approached their tent, asked if the were doing action shots and they said no (then they said they would on a request). They were there pushing their life-size posters. I then asked if they had any issues with me photographing my 11 year old son's game. They said they did not as long as I was not a pro.
What's y'alls thoughts on this?
If it is a public event and there are no guidelines to spectators about "No Photography" then I would say it's a free for all.
Let's just say if you approached me either as a dad or a pro (Referring to me as a dad or a Pro - which I am both) and told me to stop shooting with my gear at a public event....
I'd tell you to stick it.
Now if I went and put a tent up and started selling images...well thats another story.
I don't honestly see how you can tell a parent they can't take pictures of their own kid at ANY event. If a parent can afford a 400 2.8 to shoot little johnny's wee ball game, good for him. You're not going to sell anything to this parent anyway.
[I then asked if they had any issues with me photographing my 11 year old son's game.]
Since when do you need permission to take pics of your own kid whether it's a pro body or a throw away? And I think it's a bit uppity to tell others to put away their pro bodies if they are taking pics of their kids...really none of your business when it gets down to it. I'm sure you wouldn't like parents to go up to you and say "my child is a minor, you don't have my permission to shoot him/her". I know that's a stretch but I'm sure it happens.
Does your contract with this organization state no other photography by press or parents is allowed?
-If yes then you need to contact the organization or their security, NOT the parent directly.
-If no, then smile and complement the parent on a nice choice in camera gear..
Are there tournaments that will not allow parents to photograph their own kids? I think it would be hard to enforce that especially when the parents have to fork over good money for them to play. I can see not allowing them in certain areas like on the field but it would be hard to say "no you cannot photograph your kid". Or would it, just curious.
Leave the parents alone. First of all you never know who or when someone may be a customer. Secondly they are the parent. If there are any restrictions on photography at an event and you do happen to be the "O-fficial" photographer then, as previously suggested, let the organizers handle it.
The soccer tourney I photographed a couple weeks ago had several parents with Rebels and 70-200/2.8's and even one mom with a 300/2.8 (on a $50 tripod, didn't understand that one). All were parents, so I didn't say anything to them. I'm already not making sales to them, why bother earning a bad rep by making them stop, it's not going to make them buy my pics. If any were pro's I would have spoken to my contact at the field and had them removed, that's the deal I have the tourney hosts. I'm the only pro there selling photos. I don't care about parents taking pics, PJ's taking pics, even the tourney people taking pics for their own use (although I give them photos for their promo stuff, so sometimes I don't understand why they don't just have me take them.). All of that is written into my proposal and contracts, so there is no confusion. There is no point getting worked up and causing bad press over a sale that was lost before they even stepped onto the field.
Russ Isabella wrote:
I'm confused. You're a pro to the mom but a dad to the pro?
Well said. Just doesn't make sense, does it.
One of my most enjoyable things to shoot is my kids in their sporting activites. If I'm sitting in the stands with a 70-200 at a basketball game, or standing outside the fence with my 400/f2.8 at a baseball game shooting my own kids for my own personal use, is someone going to tell me to stop shooting? I would hope not.
IMO, a huge part of being an "official" photographer for a youth sports organization is having access. That not only means access to the field of play--sidelines at a football game, courtside of a basketball game or inside the fence for baseball--but it means access to market yourself and sell your images to those participants and their parents.
As long as every PWC isn't roaming the sidelines or lining the inside of the fence at a baseball game, I really don't care what they're shooting and what gear they're using. Shoot all you want.
I've made sales to parents with decent gear because I sat there and chatted with them while we both were shooting the game. Fact is, they just want a decent shot of their kid, and if you help them learn a bit to get it, then they are far more likely to buy one of yours if it is better. It all comes down to that critical intangible found on corporate balance sheets -- good will. You can bet that parent with the fancy camera will be asked by others what they think of you. If they're reply is something along the lines of 'great person.... seems to know what (s)he is doing" then you'll make more sales. Think of it as a loss-leader.
And, if you're shooting at a tournament with an official photographer and want to kill time, why not simply ask the crew there if they want to buy the other shots from your card for some nominal sum? If the work is any good they'll jump at the opportunity. After all, it is all about getting as many quality shots up as possible for sale. In the end it is largely irrelevant who takes them.
Are there tournaments that will not allow parents to photograph their own kids? I think it would be hard to enforce that especially when the parents have to fork over good money for them to play. I can see not allowing them in certain areas like on the field but it would be hard to say "no you cannot photograph your kid". Or would it, just curious.
Different sports have different expectations. Many of the events we cover prohibit video and photography. The venues (typically Civic Centers) already have security at the gates enforcing no food and drinks so adding video and cameras is not a big deal. Also parents know ahead of time and are use to this policy. Once in a while a parent will sneak in with a camera and security usually takes care of it. One of the organization we shoot for announces throughout the event that performances will be deducted points if spectators are caught using cameras. Last month some numb parent was snapping away with the flash on and was practically mugged by the other parents as they feared their kids would be deducted points. The whole thing was kind of amusing.
If you are afraid of parents with nicer equipment out-shooting you, then you are probably not going to be successful in this line of work. I have nice equipment, but I know for a fact that may pro photographers with lesser equipment can out-shoot me and make better images. It's not the equipment that determines the quality of your product. I'll concede it does help.
Secondly, just because a parent with a great camera is taking pictures, it doesn't mean she is making nicer images than you. Also, pissing off one parent can have severe, negative consequences for your sales. They know the other parents, you probably don't. Often times, I'll chat with the other folks with cameras, offer them shooting tips and the like. Hell, I've let one shoot with my setup for a few minutes. Now, the parent sees you as professional and not as some jerk trying to make a quick buck off their kid's game.
"They said they did not as long as I was not a pro."
So if you're a pro but only shooting your kid they have a problem? If someone came up to be with this BS, they'd get a nice, kind, FO! After $13,000 worth of equipment purchases pretty much to document my daughter....
cocodrillo wrote:
I've made sales to parents with decent gear because I sat there and chatted with them while we both were shooting the game. Fact is, they just want a decent shot of their kid, and if you help them learn a bit to get it, then they are far more likely to buy one of yours if it is better. It all comes down to that critical intangible found on corporate balance sheets -- good will. You can bet that parent with the fancy camera will be asked by others what they think of you. If they're reply is something along the lines of 'great person.... seems to know what (s)he is doing" then you'll make more sales. Think of it as a loss-leader....Show more →
You're right on the money here. I too have sold prints to parents who were standing right next to me shooting the same kids at the same event. There are always loads of PWC's but most of them leave them on Program and hope for the best.
I came upon this recently shooting a horse show. The man with the big ol Lens was only shooting his friend with his horse.. No one horses. after he was done with his class they left. I just didn't shoot that horse.
The event however did see him and they asked me if he was with me, I told them no he was not.. so they approached him and told him there was an official photographer and to not take any more photos other then his own horse.
I wasn't phased about it.. he was only shooting the one horse. now if he was standing on the fence or in the ring with me.. I might have gotten upset.
(He was on Burst mode and must have taken a whole Memory card of this little horse, the class was about a minute long. I kinda laughed a little, I could hear his camera just wirring away)
I don't know about many of you.. but during the breaks, I go around and introduce myself to everyone, hand them a business card, tell em my prices, chat a little and move on. I get the Candid shots and portrait shots. I like to do the tight head shots and long view shots. Sometimes the parents and family are just getting pictures of their family doing whatever sport and not looking for framed images, but when they see what I came up with they get excited.
if it's a two day event.. I print up a few 11x17's of my favorite images I took the day before and display them.. I have sold more prints that way and people see what they are paying for. They have no obligation to buy them, but oh do they.
Just for the record, I said nothing to the mom. It was just brought up to me by one of the photogs I had doing the event. I told him not to say anything. I just threw this out here to see what most of you do when presented with this situation, if presented with this situation.
I often approach PWCs and ask them which is their player since I know they obviously want pics of their little darling. They are often some of my best customers.
In reference to my son's tournament, I just thought, out of courtesy, I would let the photog doing my son's tournament know I was there because I figured I would be approached since they just happen to be set up on the same field my son was playing on. (Quite honesty, had they not been there I would not have seeked them out and would never have said anything to them.)
Nice.