Pavel wrote:
The only thing I do for free personally are dog charities. I won't do a wedding for free for a friend. It devalues it. Its getting to the point that couples don't mind paying $3000 for flowers, $4500 for catering ... but want the photographer to do it for $800 ... or free. Then they have pro results in mind. Funny how that works.
And word travels. Do one for free .... and five other couples will be told how smart they were and got the photographer for free. Or ... how they can't believe it how bad their pictures turned out. Wedding photographers seem to slowly be seen in a worse and worse light ... I've noticed....Show more →
You know, I think you'd hit the nail on the head there. Not just with weddings, but with anything. People will happily pay silly money for certain things but want others dirt cheap. How many people do you know that will go out and spend £200 on a pair of trainers and jeans for their kids and then want a pro photographer to do some shots of them that they'll put on their wall and keep forever for £25.
You can't do one for free and then charge their friends more either - otherwise they'll get the hump and won't employ you.
Do nothing for free and future customers won't expect it to be free.
shatterkiss wrote:
They're not reasonably clients if they aren't paying you. Moreover, I suspect most businesses would object to being represented on your client list if the work you did for them wasn't part of a standard screening, review and hiring process, as you're essentially using your client list to imply an endorsement that they haven't given you.
Money doesn't have to change hands in order to consider someone as your client.
You can consider something as whatever you like, that's the beauty of a subjective perspective. But with a client list the question is whether or not the industry would consider them your clients, as the point of a client list is demonstrating to prospective clients who you're already working for/have worked for. I guarantee that if a prospective client discovered that you had entries on your client list that were only there because you worked for them for free it'd leave a bad taste in their mouths...it carries the implication that you couldn't earn that same client if you were charging a commercial rate.
Also keep in mind that a prospective client may treat your client list like a list of references, especially in a smaller market. Do you want someone you're courting to give a call down your list and get in response, "oh, him, right...no, he just shot some photos for us for free, I think he was trying to build up a portfolio or something. He has us on his client list? That's funny." It's a big world, but these tend to be small industries and markets - people know each other and word gets around.
chez wrote:
I am with shatterkiss...I put family and friends before other things in life. If anyone gets something done for free ( does not have to be photography ) it is family / friends first...everything else 2nd. Without family / friends...what do you have?
And that's totally OK; it's just a matter of priorities. I put my faith and God before everything in my life, hence the pro bono work for my church!
Admirable certainly, profitable (in materialistic terms at least) - no.
Like you say, matter of priorities. If you'd get more enjoyment out of the feeling of doing something good for your church - it's a no brainer. Good on you.
I agree with most posts on this subject. Offering free photography is just not the done thing. It only looks dodgy, implies lower quality, devalues the trade, and worst of all, has the potential to really annoy existing "professional" photographers who earn their entire income by providing a photographic service and who also won't appreciate having an existing client drop them because of a new guy on the block offering free photography.
How many people have owned an SLR and thought about being a professional photographer? Plenty of people have spent a couple of thousand on camera gear and called themselves just that... I'm not saying you are one of these people, but it's just the way the trade sees a lot of people around the fringe, because everybody has taken photos, has an opinion, and sees it as a potential career option, (the amount of people I've met that have said "I always wanted to work for National Geographic" or some such...) but there is a bit more involved. Local accountants would be pretty pissed off with me if I bought a calculator, pencil and a couple of ring binders and started advertising a free accounting service!
Put your portfolio together under your own steam, be creative and clever, Shatterkiss's idea above is sound, and then when you're feel you're in a position to jump in come back and ask a few more questions.
I have no objections to people wanting to get into the photography business s long as they do it in a way that reflects professionalism, integrity and a bit of respect for those already involved.
Dean Treml wrote:
I have no objections to people wanting to get into the photography business s long as they do it in a way that reflects professionalism, integrity and a bit of respect for those already involved.
There is no such thing as "a bit of respect" in the business of competing in a saturated market. It's kill or be killed, and I'll take "kill", thanks.
mulder32 wrote:
And why did you do it for free for your church and not your friends? I would think that, for most professionals, it would be the other way around.
Because I am using the abilities and knowledge God has given me back to Him in a way by helping my church which helps further His kingdom. My camera equipment is His, not mine, so, rightfully so, I'm using it to honor Him. Hope that makes sense.
Hm, it seems to make sense, but if everyone is created in God's image, then it would also make sense to shoot your friends and family for free, no?
shatterkiss wrote:
Do you want someone you're courting to give a call down your list and get in response, "oh, him, right...no, he just shot some photos for us for free, I think he was trying to build up a portfolio or something. He has us on his client list? That's funny." It's a big world, but these tend to be small industries and markets - people know each other and word gets around.
Well, the solution to that would be to merely contact your intended clients and ask them if it would be appropriate to include them on your client list. This way they are not surprised to be considered clients when someone contacts them, and they also have the option of saying no. That's pretty standard business etiquette.
mdude85 wrote:
Hm, it seems to make sense, but if everyone is created in God's image, then it would also make sense to shoot your friends and family for free, no?
Lol. True. And so are people who are not my family and friends, so I guess I charge nobody.
I think giving away a photo Is a good idea if your new and trying to get your name out there i wouldn't give more than one fee one out to anyone though.
mdude85 wrote:
There is no such thing as "a bit of respect" in the business of competing in a saturated market. It's kill or be killed, and I'll take "kill", thanks.
So you're out there cutting the throats of other photographers? Good to know. Also good to know that that someone who has "been doing photography as a serious hobby for about three years" has such wise insight into the business. I've seen many a wannabe turn up full of hot air and attitude and then fade away into the distance, and strangely enough the guys who have been doing the business for years can still work together, help one another out and go for a beer together at the end of the day.
Dean Treml wrote:
I've seen many a wannabe turn up full of hot air and attitude and then fade away into the distance, and strangely enough the guys who have been doing the business for years can still work together, help one another out and go for a beer together at the end of the day.
I totally agree with this. It actually seems like the more successful a photographer, the better the relationships they have with other photographers in their market. I've regularly seen photographers refer jobs to other shooters when they aren't available, and the most established shooters are competing with photographers that were their assistants once upon a time. If you're treating this as a dog-eat-dog industry then you're doing yourself a disservice...and you're only damaging your own reputation in the process.
(personally, I couldn't do this more than a few times without dying inside)
Are you active in your church? Do they do anything like a Daddy / Daughter dance, or any other events? Volunteer some type of service for that.
Personally I believe anyone that would make money for profit off your services deserves to pay you. Giving them anything free is a waste of your time. There are other areas though where you can do a lot for someone. Find those.
I have a daughter who is one and a half. Just the thought sends shivers down my spine. I wouldnt ever take that kind of job.
shatterkiss wrote:
I totally agree with this. It actually seems like the more successful a photographer, the better the relationships they have with other photographers in their market. I've regularly seen photographers refer jobs to other shooters when they aren't available, and the most established shooters are competing with photographers that were their assistants once upon a time. If you're treating this as a dog-eat-dog industry then you're doing yourself a disservice...and you're only damaging your own reputation in the process.
Thats funny. The well known photographers I know locally are the ones who never have anything good to say about each other and dont form part of the local society even though some once did, while the younger upcoming guys get along better and have many more links with each other.
Alex53 wrote:
Thats funny. The well known photographers I know locally are the ones who never have anything good to say about each other and dont form part of the local society even though some once did, while the younger upcoming guys get along better and have many more links with each other.
I guess it's different from person to person and place to place, of course you will always get a few bitter and twisted people but generally in my line of work 90% of the photographers all get along very well, and this includes many of the younger ones coming through who are genuine photographers and not fly-by-night types.
Funny finding this today. I had a client cancel yesterday because she has a "friend" offered to shoot her job for free. What could I say? I was polite, told her she was welcome to come by the studio any time, and wished her luck.
I can't compete with that and would rather so something else that interests me than spend my time shooting for free. Digital has exacerbated the "everyone is a photographer" problem. Skill, knowledge, and lighting can separate the amateur from the professional, but it can be hard to demonstrate that to casual clients (she was a first timer) when the competition gives it away.
All in all, there's nothing I can do about it so I just let it go. It wasn't the first time, nor will it be the last.
Dean Treml wrote:
So you're out there cutting the throats of other photographers? Good to know. Also good to know that that someone who has "been doing photography as a serious hobby for about three years" has such wise insight into the business. I've seen many a wannabe turn up full of hot air and attitude and then fade away into the distance, and strangely enough the guys who have been doing the business for years can still work together, help one another out and go for a beer together at the end of the day.
Well, I have not updated that description in two years -- so that makes five years rather than three -- but regardless, it does not take twenty, ten, or even five years in "the business" to recognize the most efficient way to operate in a saturated market... whether that market is photography, law, medicine, business, engineering, IT, or what have you. It doesn't take a certain number of years to recognize that I am not going to put myself in harm's way, professionally, in order to merely appease my competitors on arbitration alone.
I don't have a problem having a working relationship with my competitors by which we can throw off the oppressive clothing of "the business" and have a beer at the end of the day. But I'm sorry to say that I do not tolerate requests from my competitors that I must alter my business practices just so that they can get a foot in the door in order to offer a product of lower quality and higher cost and then continue to complain to people like me that their businesses are failing at the hands of "under-cutters" or "prosumers". And I doubt you would either.
And finally, while I appreciate you checking out my website and I hope you enjoyed my work, please don't presume to know my level of business or professional experience -- including what kinds of contracts I have the ability to secure over more "seasoned" competition -- by merely reading an out-dated one paragraph afterthought of my photographic interests on a weblog of my personal photo collection. Please do your best to address the message and not the messenger.
I would not do free work for business. Think you will find they do not appreciate what is given for free most of the time. Build your portfolio and prove you are worth paying for and you will be better off. For free work find a charity in need of help. The big ones I shoot for make more at one event than I do in a year so I have no issue charging my full rate but others just getting started with volunteer staff need a break. I would not even worry about a tax write off unless you spend money on prints etc.
