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Archive 2008 · Pro Bono Work

  
 
Dean Treml
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p.4 #1 · Pro Bono Work


mdude85 wrote:
Well, I have not updated that description in two years -- so that makes five years rather than three -- but regardless, it does not take twenty, ten, or even five years in "the business" to recognize the most efficient way to operate in a saturated market... whether that market is photography, law, medicine, business, engineering, IT, or what have you. It doesn't take a certain number of years to recognize that I am not going to put myself in harm's way, professionally, in order to merely appease my competitors on arbitration alone.

I don't have a problem having a
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Ok, maybe you find my response to your initial remarks personally invasive, if so sorry, however my response is based on your “kill or be killed” critic to my post which was addressing the original message, and which sounds as if you have a rather draconian view of business and a negative approach toward others within.
Regardless of time in any industry or profession, there are ways of operating that vary from person to person, and mine has had plenty of happy relationships with clients and colleagues that have lasted years and still endure without the need to approach situations with cynicism and contempt for others. I have colleagues who I refer work to when busy and vice versa, and we share information or equipment if somebody has a problem or need, and we will share vehicles, meals and hotels if doing jobs on the road. I have clients who I have lost because they have decided to use somebody else for whatever reason, price or better quality, who knows, and clients who have started using me instead of somebody else for whatever reason. I have also had clients come back to me after using somebody else, but I have let these thing take their course without the need to kill or be killed.

Like you I would not tolerate competitors wanting me to alter my practises, regardless of the quality or price of the services they offer, and I also dislike under-cutters who virtually give work away because they get a kick out of seeing their name in print or getting a pass to a sporting event that allows them to lean across the advertising boards and cheer for their team while getting in the way of professionals trying to do their job. There are also the people who appear one day, like a retired lawyer who buys a kit of pro gear and offers his services to a sports club for free and instigates rules that only he can go to certain areas to shoot, but who can’t take a photo to save himself but talks himself up and looks the part with a 400 2.8. Obviously his contract only lasted the one season. Would it not have been better to act with a “bit of respect” for other photographers and work together?
There are people who turn up and work in with others and go the distance and then there are the people who turn up with “hot air and attitude” and never seem to last very long, and these are my experiences which obviously don’t involve you and were not directed at you.

Your work and variety on your website looks fine, but to generalise that there is no such thing as a bit of respect in the business of competing is incorrect. If I see this I will naturally wonder where such an outlook comes from and therefore look at your website and glean from that what information is listed. I will then respond based on this and my experience of 20 plus years as a photographer, and of those who I know, work with and respect. No grenades or napalm in sight.




Jul 25, 2008 at 12:14 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #2 · Pro Bono Work


Dean Treml wrote:
Your work and variety on your website looks fine, but to generalise that there is no such thing as a bit of respect in the business of competing is incorrect. If I see this I will naturally wonder where such an outlook comes from and therefore look at your website and glean from that what information is listed. I will then respond based on this and my experience of 20 plus years as a photographer, and of those who I know, work with and respect. No grenades or napalm in sight.



Sure, I could put a laundry list of publications I've shot for or companies I have contracts with, and I could even join a professional organization only to list it on my website to improve my credibility (which not to say that is what you do, as I have not had the chance to visit your site), but that is not where my priorities lie right now. I apologize if the vibe of my blog appeared as a professional "resume" of my work, however it is a personal site to show my personal work and to exhibit some of my favorite photos from my "hobby of" now 5 years. In fact, I have a shoot tomorrow morning, and it won't appear on my blog. Does that mean it doesn't exist, or that I don't get clients? I'll let you be the judge of that ...

To suggest that I might be someone who "virtually give[s my] work away because [I] get [] a pass to a sporting event ... to ... get a kick out of ... lean[ing] across the advertising boards ... while getting in the way of professions trying to do their job" is not only egregiously false but also is counter to your suggestion that you enjoy fostering relationships with your competition, your competition naturally including those of us in "the business" who offer lower prices than competitors but manage to snag jobs on the basis of value. If I may use your words, the level of "cynicism" and "contempt" shown by "professionals" for those of us operating in this model seems to border on outright hypocrisy

The maxim "kill or be killed" is pretty standard business practice -- and such a maxim is NOT mutually exclusive with having a relationship with competition that fosters innovation across the market.


Edited by mdude85 on Jul 25, 2008 at 04:17 PM GMT

Edited on Jul 25, 2008 at 04:17 PM



Jul 25, 2008 at 03:35 PM
Brent Ward
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p.4 #3 · Pro Bono Work


mdude85 wrote:
Sure, I could put a laundry list of publications I've shot for or companies I have contracts with, and I could even join a professional organization only to list it on my website to improve my credibility (which not to say that is what you do, as I have not had the chance to visit your site), but that is not where my priorities lie right now. I apologize if the vibe of my blog appeared as a professional "resume" of my work, however it is a personal site to show my personal work and to exhibit some of my
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You come across as a low-baller with a chip on his shoulder. If that's incorrect, maybe you should work on your diplomacy.



Jul 25, 2008 at 04:00 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #4 · Pro Bono Work


Brent Ward wrote:
You come across as a low-baller with a chip on his shoulder. If that's incorrect, maybe you should work on your diplomacy.



What is meant by "low-baller"? If you are suggesting that I have a chip on my shoulder with regard to this particular issue, then you are spot on. Members of "the business" in a similar position to mine are constantly bombarded with criticism from our competition that we are removing business from them merely because our value is higher (and if it is not higher, it is made to appear to be through clever marketing). To this criticism I must hold a mirror and point squarely back to them for failing to not only to adapt to a changing market environment but also for not being able to create a product barely distinguishable in quality from lower priced alternatives. I would have the same chip if I worked in any other saturated industry (convenience stores come to mind).

Brent, I sympathise: my grandfather was a professional photographer and ran a corner studio for 30 years in order to support my family, a studio which I've had the opportunity to visit on occasion (I believe it is now a dry cleaners ) He was able to survive in a changing market because his work was of extremely high quality and along with that he he did not price gouge. Luckily he was able to retire before the advent of digital or else it remains unseen as to what he would have done.

It's sad that I cannot see a duplicate working environment existing except rarely in today's market, but as I said things have changed. If I were in a market competing with my grandfather, I would lose, because while my prices are low, his quality and the quality of other competent and successful professionals is distinguished. I'm not going to simply make amends for those who come in and offer low quality and then complain that I am taking away business from them. Not that I am saying that is what you do, but if I had a dollar for every time I heard such a complaint, well, I would be able to charge a lot less than I do and still get by. In fact, the names that have been thrown at members of the market working in a mode similar to mine has been known to be far worse than the words I am using, thus I don't see a problem with my level of diplomacy. For instance, "low baller" is completely unjustified, to say the least.


In any event, I don't know what this has to do with pro bono work, and I don't know how we digressed from that original conversation, so let's get back to it.

Edited on Jul 25, 2008 at 04:20 PM



Jul 25, 2008 at 04:11 PM
Dean Treml
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p.4 #5 · Pro Bono Work


mdude85 wrote:
To suggest that I might be someone who "virtually give[s my] work away because [I] get [] a pass to a sporting event ... to ... get a kick out of ... lean[ing] across the advertising boards ... while getting in the way of professions trying to do their job" is not only egregiously false but also is counter to your suggestion that you enjoy fostering relationships with your competition, your competition naturally including those of us in "the business" who offer lower prices than competitors but manage to snag jobs on the basis of value. If I may use
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Sorry but you misunderstand me. I am not saying this is you. I am offering examples of people that I have seen come into this trade. Do not assume I am doing anything other than giving my opinion from my experience. I offer prices lower than my competitors also, but in some cases I charge more. I do foster relationships with upcoming photographers. It is one of the reasons why when I have occasional down time I come to FredMiranda to offer some pointers if I see someone I can potentially assist, hence my meagre 270 odd posts in 4 years. I occasionally get random e-mails asking questions which I always reply to. I have lectured to photojournalism students in college, I have one upcoming photographer as a result of this who was an off the hook student with no ambition and who has discovered photography as a future career. It's unfortunate if your experiences with professionals has been negative, but that is not me.

Edited on Jul 25, 2008 at 04:37 PM



Jul 25, 2008 at 04:36 PM
Dean Treml
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p.4 #6 · Pro Bono Work


...and hey SlowDalPangEe...


Sorry for hijacking you post...



Jul 25, 2008 at 04:38 PM
Brent Ward
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p.4 #7 · Pro Bono Work


mdude85 wrote:
What is meant by "low-baller"? If you are suggesting that I have a chip on my shoulder with regard to this particular issue, then you are spot on. Members of "the business" in a similar position to mine are constantly bombarded with criticism from our competition that we are removing business from them merely because our value is higher (and if it is not higher, it is made to appear to be through clever marketing). To this criticism I must hold a mirror and point squarely back to them for failing to not only to adapt to a changing market
...Show more

Well, my definition of a lowballer is someone who prices themselves severely below their market offering the same quality.

I'm talking about someone who offers essentially the same product, but offers it for half the going rate. Doesn't make since to offer it that much below the competition when the quality is the same and higher earnings could be had. Your leaving money on the table and devaluing your market essentially to your own detriment.

How many photographers even realize what their cost of doing business is? Here's an online calculator to make it easier for one to determine what their creative fee is. Don't forget to add licensing and expenses on top of that.

https://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/cdb/cdbcalc.cfm

So we don't keep hijacking the OP thread, I'll start another on this topic...



Edited on Jul 26, 2008 at 10:03 AM



Jul 25, 2008 at 05:16 PM
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