p.12 #1 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
The US was established as a democracy. Right?
That suggests that each person has one vote. Let's carry this a step further.
There are no census figures on how many people in the US are homosexual. The figure of 10% has been used, but it comes from a narrow segment of the total population -- prisons several years ago. The best estimates suggest that between three and four percent of the US population is homosexual.
Should 97% of the population be required to follow the wishes of 3%?
No, I'm not advocating discrimination, but am saying that the wishes of the majority are also very important. Tolerance is a two-way street. It has come to mean, "You must be tolerant of my belief, but I don't have to be tolerant of yours." If someone does not respect my rights, I simply choose to deal with those who do. Life is too short to do otherwise.
It seems that the complainant in this case was looking for an opportunity to punish the photographer. It would have been very simple for her to select another photographer. It would also have prevented the name-calling on this forum.
I've been involved for more than 30 years in expansion of a variety of community organizations (recreation centers, senior citizens centers, adult literacy programs, arts, half-way houses, mentally handcicapped agencies, hospitals, schools, YMCA's, Camp Fire, etc.). WITHOUT EXCEPTION the leaders of those causes have come from the churches in the respective communities. The people in the churches wanted to improve the quality of life in their communities and did so. Without their help, the community institutions would not exist.
If I were to evaluate photography on the basis of many comments on this particular thread, I would abandon it.
I've enjoyed this forum and have learned a lot about photography. If we disagree, let's do it civilly and stop the name calling.
p.12 #2 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
John Power wrote:
Oh, so you should lie rather than tell the truth. Is that the lesson you want to teach us?
"Discrimination" is currently the most over-used, politically correct word in the English language. If someone says or does something someone else does not like suddenly its actionable discrimination. I say again, this New Mexico law is inane, unnecessary and just plain stupid.
p.12 #4 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
GCasey wrote:
The US was established as a democracy. Right?
That suggests that each person has one vote. Let's carry this a step further.
There are no census figures on how many people in the US are homosexual. The figure of 10% has been used, but it comes from a narrow segment of the total population -- prisons several years ago. The best estimates suggest that between three and four percent of the US population is homosexual.
Should 97% of the population be required to follow the wishes of 3%?
No, I'm not advocating discrimination, but am saying that the wishes of the majority are also very important. Tolerance is a two-way street. It has come to mean, "You must be tolerant of my belief, but I don't have to be tolerant of yours."
It seems that the complainant in this case was looking for an opportunity to punish the photographer. It would have been very simple for her to select another photographer. It would also have prevented the name-calling on this forum.
I've been involved for more than 30 years in expansion of a variety of community organizations (recreation centers, senior citizens centers, adult literacy programs, arts, half-way houses, mentally handcicapped agencies, hospitals, schools, YMCA's, Camp Fire, etc.). WITHOUT EXCEPTION the leaders of those causes have come from the churches in the respective communities. The people in the churches wanted to improve the quality of life in their communities and did so. Without their help, the community institutions would not exist.
If I were to evaluate photography on the basis of many comments on this particular thread, I would abandon it.
I've enjoyed this forum and have learned a lot about photography. If we disagree, let's do it civilly and stop the name calling.
p.12 #5 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
DragonflyDM wrote:
Discrimination is pretty cut and dry-- sex, creed, color, sexual orientation. Very clearly printed in the law.
Quite true. That is the law. In this particular instance, I don't think the photographer in question had a problem with the complainant's sexual orientation. From what I read, it was the same sex marriage, civil union, (whatever you chose to identify the action) as objectionable ... which also as near as I can discern is not legal in New Mexico. Should a photographer be obliged to contract and photograph an illegal (or at least not legally recognized union) event?
I have been searching for evidence of how the complainant and her partner have suffered from this particular instance of discrimination. Had all photographers in their locale refused to offer services, I could better understand their plight. I think the filing of this complaint had more to do with making a point, setting an example or precedent to be on the books to further advance the cause at a later date.
I still think this matter would have never seen the light of day, had the photographer never stated she was living up to her "Christian" values. There would have been much less to gain pursuing a case against an agnostic or atheist who may have divulged a similar opinion for refusal of service.
The progressive side of the political spectrum has voiced a loud concern about conservatives trying to legislate morality. Yet it seems as though this particular tribunal is trying to do just that.
p.12 #6 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
I don't think they should get fined but to let someone know that you are not going to shoot their wedding because they are gay shows a huge level of disrespect.
Being booked would be a more appropriate response.
p.12 #7 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
My hunch is the conversation went something like this,
Girl: "Hi I love your photography we are looking at getting married on such a such of a date are you free?"
Photog: "why yes I am"
Girl: "Great"
Photog: "Tell me more about your wedding where will it be?"
Girl: "well me and (other girls name) are having a ceremony at X place ect......"
Photog: "Ohh well umm I would rather not shoot the event"
Girl:"why not?....."
And thus the photographer was caught ...what could you would you say after that?
About the only thing you could really do is book the appointment, and than call back forty minutes and say ohh hey i tottally spaced my family is going on a cruise that weekend.....
p.12 #8 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
^^
Often when a customer (or potential one) complains about something it's because they feel they've been badly/rudely treated. The photographer who didn't want to shoot the event could probably have handled the client in a more diplomatic way, even without lying. Well OK in this case that would be difficult
p.12 #9 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
I think the comparison of discrimination on the basis of race and sexuality causes problems because sexuality is seen ( BY SOME ) as a life choice as opposed to a matter over which one has no choice.
It is clearly more inappropriate to discriminate over a characteristic where the person has no choice than one where they do ( IF that is your view of the sexuality characteristic ).
It should be legal to discriminate about matters of choice.
But that raises an issue about homosexuality which could cause the thread to go on for another 10 non-photographic pages.
Disclaimer. The above view of homosexuality is not one which I am putting forward - merely a reflection of one point of view. Please note the words in bold and italics
p.12 #10 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Hi All,
nanscombe wrote:
Society is as intolerant as ever, it is just the target that is changing.
I think that should probably have been Society is intolerant, it is just the target that changes.
Well, it seems that given the amount of posting on this subject that there may be, IMHO, some truth in my statement. There appears to be three views:
1) Those who WILL NOT TOLERATE [insert group as required] !!
2) Those who WILL NOT TOLERATE those who WILL NOT TOLERATE [insert group as required] !!
3) Those who accept there are things beyond their control and just quietly get on with life.
Two are vocal minorities and are probably as intolerant as each other, and the third is the silent majority who are most likely to suffer by getting caught in the cross-fire.
Intolerance exists and, as long as there is more than one human being on this planet, probably always will.
p.12 #11 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
nanscombe wrote:
Well, it seems that given the amount of posting on this subject that there may be, IMHO, some truth in my statement. There appears to be three views:
1) Those who WILL NOT TOLERATE [insert group as required] !!
2) Those who WILL NOT TOLERATE those who WILL NOT TOLERATE [insert group as required] !!
3) Those who accept there are things beyond their control and just quietly get on with life.
Very well put. I would say group 2 is the most vocal though, followed by group 1.
nanscombe wrote:
Intolerance exists and, as long as there is more than one human being on this planet, probably always will.
Nigel
p.12 #12 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
BTW, thanks to the moderators for letting this thread continue. For the most part it has remained civil even though it is a hotly debated topic. It affects all wedding photographers (and maybe all business people period) and maybe a few of us here will develop a proper response to such an inquiry if we were to receive one.
p.12 #13 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
When I moved to Vero Beach in 1963 each gas station had 2 sets of bathrooms. One had signs that said "Whites". The other had signs that said "Colored". We also had 2 sets of schools. That, fellow posters is true discrimination. A professional photographer declining a job for any reason or no reason is NOT discrimination no matter how hard the advocates of this ridiculous legislation try to make it. It is just one more example of government trying to forcefeed a special interest group's agenda on the citizens of New Mexico.
Politicians have no backbone. They are afraid to say no to these groups and I have never understood why. The tail can truly wag the dog because of that fact as it did in this case.
p.12 #14 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
John Power wrote:
When I moved to Vero Beach in 1963 each gas station had 2 sets of bathrooms. One had signs that said "Whites". The other had signs that said "Colored". We also had 2 sets of schools. That, fellow posters is true discrimination..
Well, that is very clear discrimination and is identifiable by almost anyone. Virtually every member of a western society would identify that as discrimination these days. We have rooted out the low hanging fruit.
The discrimination of the business in the OP is also very clear - though fewer people would see it as a the serious problem it is. That is why we have lawyers with a refined education debating nuance and the direction of society. Law school and advanced education prepare lawyers and judges to navigate the shoal strewn waters of the gray zone.
We choose not to discriminate and the law protects the minority and the masses with even hand. Society does not sanction discrimination and has penalties in place.
p.12 #16 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
As a matter of interest RWand R (assuming you are a heterosexual Christian - and if not assume you are for the purposes of the question ) how upset would you be if you went into a photographers to ask for a price for a wedding shoot and they said they only handled gay commitment ceremonies or if they were Muslim and said they only handled Muslim weddings?
p.12 #17 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Sorry Red, YOU think the special interest group is the human race. Many others would say that that special interest group is that small percentage of the human race who harbor your mindset.
Of course you are clearly entitled to that opinion and I do not begrudge you having it or expressing the same. I (and as I have said, many others) just disagree with it. No-one is going to tell me who I have to represent which is why I find this type of legislation so repugnant. I ain't a public defender. I pay rent, library, malpractice insurance etc., etc, out of my own pocket. Government does not do that for me and so they should not tell me who I have to represent. For this reason if I want to "discriminate" (in your definition of the term) I damn sure will.
You are on the left, I am on the right and neither will change the mind or position of the other. Which is OK
p.12 #18 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
It is written; count it all Joy when they abuse you,call you names or even throw you in jail for my names' sake....
What would a moslem say if you forced him or her to shot a PIG roasting party ? 98% of them would plainly say no thank you.Would you then sue him or her?
Like wise I wouldn't shot a homosexual so-called wedding for any amount of money.(period) I RATHER pay the fine than forcefully try to please people!
I don't need to cover up with lies;Truth is sour.Swallow it or spit it.
Hey don't involve me in your B...S..., go find someone else.
In these last days,you either fear God or you fear man.Their is no middle ground.
Anyway,do whatever you want BUT;Remember the day of Judgment.
p.12 #19 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
hermankt wrote:
What would a moslem say if you forced him or her to shot a PIG roasting party ? 98% of them would plainly say no thank you.Would you then sue him or her?
Like wise I wouldn't shot a homosexual so-called wedding for any amount of money.(period) I RATHER pay the fine than forcefully try to please people!
I don't need to cover up with lies;Truth is sour.Swallow it or spit it.
Hey don't involve me in your B...S..., go find someone else.
In these last days,you either fear God or you fear man.Their is no middle ground.
Anyway,do whatever you want BUT;Remember the day of Judgment....Show more →
I think the Muslim issue state here is quite a bit different than this. I'm pretty sure that all practicing Muslims are against the eating of pork. Not all Christian groups however (as much as the hard right would like you to believe) are anti-homosexual. If 100% of the Christian religion viewed homosexuality as evil then maybe this wouldn't be an issue. And do you really have $6000 laying around to pay a fine?
p.12 #20 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Wow, I politely refused to let a LBGT association use one of my photos once because I didn't want my name associated with the organization - Well, that and they wanted to use it for free! In that case it was my choice as the copyright holder to withhold it, but I hope they don't decide to come after me too! I might be sent to one of those "sensitivity training concentration camps"!
What really ticks me off here is that if these photogs had made a white lie and said "were booked that day" probably nothing would have happened. Sometimes honesty can really bite you in the backside. But I totally agree that it is up to the photogs to sign a contract whenever, wherever and for whomever they want.
!!